Dead spots on Martin guitars...HELP!

[needsareset]

Hi everyone,
I know this has been covered here, but I'm new so please try to bear
with me...thanks!

I have 2 Martin D's an HD-28 and a D-28 and both are totally dead at
the 5th fret of the low E string...but only when it's tuned to D. I was
told that possibly putting a pick-up in the sound hole could fix it,
but I really don't want to do that...I already have UST pick-ups in
them...guess there's nothing that can be done?!?!?!? except avoid
tuning them to D?!?!?!

Thanks in advance for any insight...or even if you would just like to
commiserate over an extremely annoying and darned near upsetting
condition that seems to plague these 2 otherwise fine guitars.

[Wayne Harrison]

Post by needsareset
Hi everyone,
I know this has been covered here, but I'm new so please try to bear
with me...thanks!
I have 2 Martin D's an HD-28 and a D-28 and both are totally dead at
the 5th fret of the low E string...but only when it's tuned to D. I was
told that possibly putting a pick-up in the sound hole could fix it,
but I really don't want to do that...I already have UST pick-ups in
them...guess there's nothing that can be done?!?!?!? except avoid
tuning them to D?!?!?!
Thanks in advance for any insight...or even if you would just like to
commiserate over an extremely annoying and darned near upsetting
condition that seems to plague these 2 otherwise fine guitars.

with all due respect, if something as insignificant as the condition you
describe is causing you any real concern, you need to get help--by either
changing guitar brands, or drinking more.

for myself, i will keep my martins, and choose the latter road to
relief...

wayne harrison

[Bill Chandler]

Post by needsareset
Hi everyone,
I know this has been covered here, but I'm new so please try to bear
with me...thanks!
I have 2 Martin D's an HD-28 and a D-28 and both are totally dead at
the 5th fret of the low E string...but only when it's tuned to D. I was
told that possibly putting a pick-up in the sound hole could fix it,
but I really don't want to do that...I already have UST pick-ups in
them...guess there's nothing that can be done?!?!?!? except avoid
tuning them to D?!?!?!
Thanks in advance for any insight...or even if you would just like to
commiserate over an extremely annoying and darned near upsetting
condition that seems to plague these 2 otherwise fine guitars.

Hmm...Have you tried new/different strings?

I like the John Pearse strings, myself--medium or light, 80/20 or PB
either one--both sound great on my Guild 6-string, even tuned down to
DGCFAd.

HTH...
-----
"The truth knocks on the door, and you say, 'Go away, I'm
looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling."
--Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

the above e-mail address remains totally fictional.
the real one is ***@spamTHIS!.concentric.net (if you remove spamTHIS!.)
...please check out my music at http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Bill_Chandler/ some time...
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...TX-4 Pictures at http://bc9424.cnc.net/tx_4_web/tx4_main.htm
...TX-5 Pictures coming Real Soon Now.
Bill Chandler
...bc...

[Tony Done]

You have probably been unlucky enough to encounter severe examples of a
common but usually minor problem in dread size guitars - a dead note around
low F# or G. It corresponds to one of the natural resonances of the guitar
(the body cavity?). Is it also dead on the third fret when tuned to E? If
the problem doesn't occur when you tune to E, it suggests that the slack
strings in D may be exacerbating the problem. I've always though that,
although Martins don't have a weak bass, they sometimes seem to be more
sensitive to deficiencies (ie age) in the 6th string than some other makes
I've tried, so if you want to tune to D going to a heavier, brighter or
newer bass string may fix the problem.

FWIW, my electrified flattops and resos are set up with a mag pickup in
combination with a piezo, though an external preamp/mixer. - I prefer the
sound

Tony D

Post by needsareset
Hi everyone,
I know this has been covered here, but I'm new so please try to bear
with me...thanks!
I have 2 Martin D's an HD-28 and a D-28 and both are totally dead at
the 5th fret of the low E string...but only when it's tuned to D. I was
told that possibly putting a pick-up in the sound hole could fix it,
but I really don't want to do that...I already have UST pick-ups in
them...guess there's nothing that can be done?!?!?!? except avoid
tuning them to D?!?!?!
Thanks in advance for any insight...or even if you would just like to
commiserate over an extremely annoying and darned near upsetting
condition that seems to plague these 2 otherwise fine guitars.

[needsareset]

Thanks for all the good input boys...I've tried other (heavier)
strings...and it actually got worse...until I started playing in DADGAD
95% of the time, I never really noticed it...now...the offending low G
note makes me cringe...and Tony D...you're right on...it's a prob with
dreads, esp. the low G note, because none of my 000's are guilty of
this...I'm going to check out a cedar topped Huss and Dalton on
Monday...My dreads just aren't cut out for DADGAD...thanks for
everyones thoughts...even your's Wayne!

[Misifus]

Post by needsareset
Thanks for all the good input boys...I've tried other (heavier)
strings...and it actually got worse...until I started playing in DADGAD
95% of the time, I never really noticed it...now...the offending low G
note makes me cringe...and Tony D...you're right on...it's a prob with
dreads, esp. the low G note, because none of my 000's are guilty of
this...I'm going to check out a cedar topped Huss and Dalton on
Monday...My dreads just aren't cut out for DADGAD...thanks for
everyones thoughts...even your's Wayne!

You know, there's a reason DADGAD is known as "The Dark Side".

-Raf

[alcarruth]

It certainly sounds like the 'main air' resonance, which is quite often
a problem. The guitar is so effective at extracting energy from the
string at that pitch and getting it out into the room that you get a
note that's twice as loud for half as long. You aren't very sensitive
to changes in volume, particularly at those low pitches, but the lack
of sustain is a problem.

Putting a pickup in the sound hole will drop the pitch of the resonance
and make it a bit weaker because of the smaller area. Another and less
obtrusive way to do it would be to 'tune' the port the same way they do
on loudspeaker enclosures.

Make a sleeve of card stock that's just a little bigger in diameter
than your soundhole and a couple of inches tall. Put some tabs on the
upper edge. Put it in through the hole by creasing one side a little,
expand it out to a circle again, and attach the tabs to the inside of
the top with double stick tape. Try the guitar to see how you like the
sound.

You can find the exact pitch of the 'main air' resonance pretty easily
by pinching the low E string between your left thumb and finger and
plucking it with your right hand. You'll hear a sort of pitched 'thump'
from the highly damped string, and you can change the pitch by sliding
your left hand up and down the string to change the point where you
pinch it. The loudest 'thump' is the main air pitch.

Putting in the sleeve should drop that pitch. My feeling is that you
want that resonance somewhere near the lowest note you will be playing,
but not all the way at the bottom. F# or G are usually good aiming
points for 'normal' guitars. If you're using the guitar for DADGAD most
of the time them you might want to drop the air mode pitch from G or so
to around E or even D#. Trimming the height of the sleeve will change
the amount it drops the pitch. When you get it right you can glue the
sleeve in place. Make sure it doesn't rattle. If you color the inside
surface with a black marking pen it should be pretty unobtrusive, and,
of course, you can pull it out if you ever want to sell the guitar.

Alan Carruth / Luthier

[Bob Alman]

Post by alcarruth
Putting a pickup in the sound hole will drop the pitch of the resonance
and make it a bit weaker because of the smaller area. Another and less
obtrusive way to do it would be to 'tune' the port the same way they do
on loudspeaker enclosures.

How much of a role does the mass of the pickup play in dropping the
frequency of the resonance? Could weights be attached to the top to
lower it? You could experiment by placing them on the top side, then
attach them under the top in the same location if they worked.

[alcarruth]

The 'main air' resonance is actually the result of coupling between the
'main top' resoance and the 'Helmholtz' air resonance. The Helmholtz
mode is what you hear when you blow across the mouth of a bottle, and
in theory requires a spherical enclosure with rigid walls. When the
walls of the box can flex you end up with a 'bass reflex' enclosure,
such as is commonly used for loudspeakers. The effect is to lower the
pitch of the 'real' Helmholtz mode somewhat.

The most effective place to add mass to the top in order to drop the
pitch of the 'main air' resonance would be at the bridge, but it would
probably take a lot of mass to have much of an effect. This would
certainly change the timbre of the guitar, adding to the sustain and
decreasing the volume most likely.

One thing that gets overlooked frequently is the role of the back in
all of this. If the 'main back' resonance frequency is fairly close to
the pitch of the 'main top' resonance the two will work together, and
this will drop the pitch of the 'main air' resonance a bit. It's as if
you made the top bigger, in some sense.

You can check to see if this will be possible on your guitar by holding
it up with your hand in the soundhole, pinching the upper top cross
brace with your thumb and finger. Try to block off as much of the hole
as you can without touching the top. This will cut out the 'main air'
resonance, which masks the sound of the top and back resonances. Tap on
the center of the bridge with your finger tip, and try to get a clear
impression of the pitch of the 'thump'. When you find it, see if you
can match it with a played note. It's usually around the pitch of the
open G string. Now do the same with the back, tapping in the middle of
the lower bout or a little higher up. You may hear several clear
pitches by tapping in different places: go for the lowest one.

You will get about the strongest 'couple' between the top and back, and
the greatest usable effect on the 'main air' resonance if the back tap
tone is about a semitone above that of the top. Often it's much higher.
If it's anywhere close you could try adding some weight to the back,
say by sticking on a lump of poster adhesive ('FunTac' and 'BluTac' are
two brands). This allows you to get some idea of the effect on the
sound of a particular modification without actually removing wood.
Usually shaving the back braces in the lower bout will be effective in
dropping that back resonance. This _can_ (but does not always) make a
big difference in the tone in the low register.

Alan Carruth / Luthier

[Joe Jordan]

On 12 Mar 2005 13:15:13 -0800, "needsareset"

Post by needsareset
Hi everyone,
I know this has been covered here, but I'm new so please try to bear
with me...thanks!
I have 2 Martin D's an HD-28 and a D-28 and both are totally dead at
the 5th fret of the low E string...but only when it's tuned to D. I was
told that possibly putting a pick-up in the sound hole could fix it,
but I really don't want to do that...I already have UST pick-ups in
them...guess there's nothing that can be done?!?!?!? except avoid
tuning them to D?!?!?!
Thanks in advance for any insight...or even if you would just like to
commiserate over an extremely annoying and darned near upsetting
condition that seems to plague these 2 otherwise fine guitars.

Do you get a similar dead spot at the third fret when the
string is tuned to standard (E)? Or maybe when it's tuned
just a little flat or sharp from that?

If so, it might be what's called a "wolf tone".

http://tinyurl.com/47835

Joe

______________________

Joe Jordan
Starkville, Mississippi

<<<SPAM TRAP: To email me at this address, include RMMGA anywhere in the subject!>>>

[Carlos Alden]

Post by Joe Jordan
On 12 Mar 2005 13:15:13 -0800, "needsareset"

Post by needsareset
Hi everyone,
I know this has been covered here, but I'm new so please try to bear
with me...thanks!
I have 2 Martin D's an HD-28 and a D-28 and both are totally dead at
the 5th fret of the low E string...but only when it's tuned to D.

Is this note only dead to you, the player? It could be that out in front of
the guitar it sounds fine, and is simply not getting up to you in player
position. If this is the case (sometimes is) you could learn to live with
it knowing that "out front" all is well in the sonic world.

It may be acceptable to you if it's okay out front, but personally I can't
stand this sound, and it's why I bought an OM sized guitar. Even when
shopping for that I really listened for wolf tones in different playing
positions all around the store. I even eschewed the famed Lowden, because
although it was fine out front I would shy away from some notes due to the
volume and intensity difference.

Carlos

[MikeW]

I was interested to read this because I had a similar problem with two
Lowdens which I used to own. They both exibited this dead note on the
A on the sixth string. This coincided with the air resonance in these
particular guitars. I really liked these guitars apart from this
problem but I found the problem so annoying that I eventually sold
both guitars at a considerable loss. I noted that other people who
played these guitars never seemed to notice the problem. Also I don't
think it was as evident up front because when I now listen to
recordings the problem is not really noticeable. I now have two
Martins: an OM35 and a D35. Neither of these guitars has this problem.
The OM has a slight tendency to it on the G on the sixth string but
the quality of the note is still OK and in keeping whith the rest of
the guitar; the D doesn't do it at all and all the notes are extremely
even. I know I am not offering any solutions but the problem is
definitely not associated with Martin D's. My brother also has a D35
which, again, has no tendency to this problem at all. I would advise
you to sell these guitars, stand the loss and just get one that
doesn't do it 'cause it will drive you crackers in the long run!

[mark]

I have a d-18 with a dead g-note. I complained about it here and was
advised it could have been a "wolf" note or an imperfection in the wood. I
never did anything about it except to buy a d-35. Now when I play it it
doesn't seem so bad or I can't hear it at all. Maybe it was my imagination
or maybe it improved over time. I like to think it got better on its own.
mark

Post by MikeW
I was interested to read this because I had a similar problem with two
Lowdens which I used to own. They both exibited this dead note on the
A on the sixth string. This coincided with the air resonance in these
particular guitars. I really liked these guitars apart from this
problem but I found the problem so annoying that I eventually sold
both guitars at a considerable loss. I noted that other people who
played these guitars never seemed to notice the problem. Also I don't
think it was as evident up front because when I now listen to
recordings the problem is not really noticeable. I now have two
Martins: an OM35 and a D35. Neither of these guitars has this problem.
The OM has a slight tendency to it on the G on the sixth string but
the quality of the note is still OK and in keeping whith the rest of
the guitar; the D doesn't do it at all and all the notes are extremely
even. I know I am not offering any solutions but the problem is
definitely not associated with Martin D's. My brother also has a D35
which, again, has no tendency to this problem at all. I would advise
you to sell these guitars, stand the loss and just get one that
doesn't do it 'cause it will drive you crackers in the long run!