Guitar Identification..?

[g***@yahoo.com]

What up rmmga'ers?

I'm wondering if someone can identify my guitar in these photos. Mom
gave me this guitar when Bosco was a kitten (a long time ago) and
I've since used it for various guitar experiments throughout the
years which explains why it's so beat up and is living out its
remaining years as a lap steel guitar...

Anyhow, I asked her about it and she "thinks" it came from a
California Sears store in '69. I've always thought it was a
Silvertone but I haven't found any pictures on the net to verify my
hunch. What do you think?

BTW, the guitar had a 'French curve-like' pickguard that was
attached with three screws directly to the soundboard...yikes! Also, I
had to replace the original tuners with Grovers to make it a functional
instrument.

Here are the photos (click on 'Guitar Id' album):

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/guitarblather/my_photos


...and here is a sound clip: http://tinyurl.com/8sk4z It records
pretty well for a plywood guitar.

Thanks -Brian

[Mike]

Post by g***@yahoo.com
What up rmmga'ers?
I'm wondering if someone can identify my guitar in these photos. Mom
gave me this guitar when Bosco was a kitten (a long time ago) and
I've since used it for various guitar experiments throughout the
years which explains why it's so beat up and is living out its
remaining years as a lap steel guitar...
Anyhow, I asked her about it and she "thinks" it came from a
California Sears store in '69. I've always thought it was a
Silvertone but I haven't found any pictures on the net to verify my
hunch. What do you think?
BTW, the guitar had a 'French curve-like' pickguard that was
attached with three screws directly to the soundboard...yikes! Also, I
had to replace the original tuners with Grovers to make it a functional
instrument.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/guitarblather/my_photos
...and here is a sound clip: http://tinyurl.com/8sk4z It records
pretty well for a plywood guitar.
Thanks -Brian

Google is your friend. Searching on 319.12120000 found a few hits, one
on wholenote and this forum

http://forum.guitarsalon.com/viewtopic.php?t=3044&sid=ab2a593f42a6b44e0af68eeb1ddf407a

[g***@yahoo.com]

Post by Mike
Google is your friend. Searching on 319.12120000 found a few hits, one
on wholenote and this forum
http://forum.guitarsalon.com/viewtopic.php?t=3044&sid=ab2a593f42a6b44e0af68eeb1ddf407a

The WholeNote site has it listed as a Silvertone, though no pictures.
Thanks.

-Brian

[Sain't]

My guess is it was made by Harmony for Sears. It has the Sovereign
style bridge.

Michael

[Mitch]

That would be Pet Dog Guitar II. Don't use it in a band -
it'll explode.

Mitch (happy to help)

[Ken Cashion]

Post by Sain't
My guess is it was made by Harmony for Sears. It has the Sovereign
style bridge.
Michael

That bridge is identical to the bridge that was on my Sears (Harmony)
1955; whoever, the Harmony patent heads all looked alike to me and
this one doesn't quite look like a Harmony. Kay?

Ken

[Peter Huggins]

Definitely produced by Harmony. This is a "SR" model, stands for Sears
Roebuck. These were slightly below the guitars labelled "Silvertone" by
price in the Sears Catalog. I had one with fake spruce graining painted
on top, if you held it at the right angle, you could see the actual
Birch graining under the paint. The rosette is painted too.

The body is actually solid Birch, not laminate, and the pinless bridge
design dates back at least to the middle 1950`s. If they aren`t too
faded out, there may still be a serial number rubber-stamped inside on
the back, visible through the soundhole, and a smaller stamp of a
rectangle with "made in U.S.A." and a number such as F-62 or S-63 or
whatever. That is the actual year of production. They originally came
with a record teaching the new owner how to tune and play the guitar.


BTW to Ken: After looking at the pictures of YOUR Silvertone, I believe
it was made by Kay. They were the only ones to make the Big Jumbo bodies
like that, Harmonys` jumbo was smaller, and was out of production by
1955.

Great Guitars !

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
" I`d dance with you Maria, but my hands are on fire " - Bob Dylan

" We had a knob, and all we had to do was turn it." - Les Paul

Grins, Peter
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/THISISTHE

http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/unfinished3

http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/PhotoReserveNo1

http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/MYFRIEND

[Ken Cashion]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:13:52 -0700, ***@webtv.net (Peter
Huggins) wrote:

<snip>

Post by Peter Huggins
BTW to Ken: After looking at the pictures of YOUR Silvertone, I believe
it was made by Kay. They were the only ones to make the Big Jumbo bodies
like that, Harmonys` jumbo was smaller, and was out of production by
1955.

Peter, you are not the first guy to tell me this but I
couldn't find a Kay link to it. But I did find a link to the Harmony
bridge and patent head shape.
One guy assured me that there was a run of deep waist, 17"
from Harmony for Sears.
On these cheaper guitars, the manufacturers could have done
anything they wanted to the bridges and patent heads, but making a
totally different body shape would have been a little much. I don't
think the manufacturer would have had anything to gain doing that.
And I've not found a deep waist, big flat top in Harmony other
than the Silvertone.
I have not found a patent head shape like that on a Kay but
the wrap-around string bridge I HAVE seen on a Kay.
And while we are at it...check out the image of my blonde arch
top. It reads "Catalina" and on the back of the patent head is an
imprinted music stand with "Steel Reinforced Neck" at the top of the
music stand as if it is printed on a sheet of music. To me, the
patent head and stamped tailpiece says "Harmony" but the blonde and
general tackiness says "Kay."

I will keep looking...but still enjoying the old things.

Ken

[Peter Huggins]

Patent Heads, or tuners as most of us call them, as well as most
tailpieces, were mainly provided by Kluson, who jobbed parts to all the
Chicago guitar manufacturers: Regal, Kay, Harmony, and Valco, as well as
Gibson (whose management was located in Chicago in those days).

There was quite a bit of back and forth horse trading between the rival
companies as well, especially during the depression up through WW II. It
is not unusual to find a Supro archtop with a Harmony body, complete
with date stamp, and a Valco (Supro or National) neck. Likewise there
are National flat tops with Gibson J-50 bodies, and archtops with ES-175
bodies. After Gibson perfected the P-90 pickup they sold off the
remaining stock of the earlier design pickups, which showed up on Kay
guitars throughout the `50s and on Harmony lap steels well into the
`60s. In some Sears catalogs you can find guitars produced by Valco,
Harmony, and Kay on the same page !

However, the big jumbo body is a Kay product exclusively. I will find a
photo of one with the Kay logo and forward it to you. This is one of my
favorite Kay designs, but I have yet to find one with a neck to my
liking; most of them have the dimensions of 2/3rds of the business end
of a baseball bat. Louisville slugger, anyone ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
" I`d dance with you Maria, but my hands are on fire " - Bob Dylan

" We had a knob, and all we had to do was turn it." - Les Paul

Grins, Peter
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/THISISTHE

http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/unfinished3

http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/PhotoReserveNo1

http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/MYFRIEND

[Peter Huggins]

More Ken:
<<< And while we are at it...check out the image of my blonde arch top.
It reads "Catalina" and on the back of the patent head is an imprinted
music stand with "Steel Reinforced Neck" at the top of the music stand
as if it is printed on a sheet of music. To me, the patent head and
stamped tailpiece says "Harmony" but the blonde and general tackiness
says "Kay." >>>

This is a confusing combination, to be sure (I note that you are calling
the whole headstock the 'patent head' and not just the tuner strips; I
would therefore amend my previous post, ever so slightly). The
headstocks of Kay and Harmony product are remarkably similar, nearly
identical on occasion; in particular the necks that are held to the body
by three screws rather than glued in. But the image of the music stand
holding the 'steel reinforced neck' sign seems to trace directly to
Kay.....

Perhaps Harmony ran out of neck blanks and acquired enough of them from
Kay to finish an outstanding order ? Who knows for sure ? We can only
deduct the answers we get from personal examinations of many many
guitars and what scant data we have been able to dredge up from those
that were there before us.... I sure would like to pick the brain of
anybody who worked for Harmony or Kay, or Kluson for that matter, during
the 1940`s , `50`s or `60`s.

Just got delivered the Slingerland Songster archtop I bought off ebay.
Again a bundle of questions arise: Did Slingerland contract their guitar
production out or did they make their own in-house? I am inclined to
believe the latter.


P.S.:
Pictures of the Alleged Stromberg coming soon, I promise.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
" I`d dance with you Maria, but my hands are on fire " - Bob Dylan

" We had a knob, and all we had to do was turn it." - Les Paul

Grins, Peter
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/THISISTHE

http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/unfinished3

http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/PhotoReserveNo1

http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/MYFRIEND

[g***@yahoo.com]

Post by Peter Huggins
Definitely produced by Harmony. This is a "SR" model, stands for Sears
Roebuck. These were slightly below the guitars labelled "Silvertone" by
price in the Sears Catalog. I had one with fake spruce graining painted
on top, if you held it at the right angle, you could see the actual
Birch graining under the paint. The rosette is painted too.
The body is actually solid Birch, not laminate, and the pinless bridge
design dates back at least to the middle 1950`s. If they aren`t too
faded out, there may still be a serial number rubber-stamped inside on
the back, visible through the soundhole, and a smaller stamp of a
rectangle with "made in U.S.A." and a number such as F-62 or S-63 or
whatever. That is the actual year of production. They originally came
with a record teaching the new owner how to tune and play the guitar.

Good info, thanks Peter. You're right, the guitar does have a serial
number stamped next to the neck block, but it's only partially
legible. I'm unable to make out the numbers after the 'S' to
determine the year it was made- bummer!

...and both the binding and the fingerboard are painted to look like
the real thing:)

-Brian
http://tinyurl.com/8sk4z

[Ken Cashion]

Post by g***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter Huggins
Definitely produced by Harmony. This is a "SR" model, stands for Sears
Roebuck. These were slightly below the guitars labelled "Silvertone" by
price in the Sears Catalog. I had one with fake spruce graining painted
on top, if you held it at the right angle, you could see the actual
Birch graining under the paint. The rosette is painted too.
The body is actually solid Birch, not laminate, and the pinless bridge
design dates back at least to the middle 1950`s. If they aren`t too
faded out, there may still be a serial number rubber-stamped inside on
the back, visible through the soundhole, and a smaller stamp of a
rectangle with "made in U.S.A." and a number such as F-62 or S-63 or
whatever. That is the actual year of production. They originally came
with a record teaching the new owner how to tune and play the guitar.

Good info, thanks Peter. You're right, the guitar does have a serial
number stamped next to the neck block, but it's only partially
legible. I'm unable to make out the numbers after the 'S' to
determine the year it was made- bummer!
...and both the binding and the fingerboard are painted to look like
the real thing:)
-Brian
http://tinyurl.com/8sk4z

My binding is the real thing. <g>
These old guitars and their origin causes lots of mysteries...and fun.

Brian, if you want to see the guitars I have been talking about, check
out http://www.photos.windmillpro.com/ and look at the music related
stuff.

There are some images there of other music stuff, too.

Ken

[g***@yahoo.com]

Post by Ken Cashion
Brian, if you want to see the guitars I have been talking about, check
out http://www.photos.windmillpro.com/ and look at the music related
stuff.
There are some images there of other music stuff, too.

Nice pics ken! It looks like you did a lot of work to revive your
Silvertone. I had to do some bridge work on mine as well. I've
thought about doing a refret and adding a 'real' fingerboard
w/radius, but I'm having too much fun these days playing it as a lap
steel guitar.

I've only recently discovered how valuable this guitar is to me.
It's the only item I own that was made before my time (I'm 28) and
it's got personal history. Maybe it's too soon to reflect on its
being, but if there's a fire I'll know what to save... and that
will be my Martin... history shmistory :-)

-Brian
http://tinyurl.com/8sk4z

[Ken Cashion]

Post by g***@yahoo.com

Post by Ken Cashion
Brian, if you want to see the guitars I have been talking about, check
out http://www.photos.windmillpro.com/ and look at the music related
stuff.
There are some images there of other music stuff, too.

Nice pics ken! It looks like you did a lot of work to revive your
Silvertone.

It was getting a little too hard to play...but it sure kept my
calluses firm! When I said I was going to get the neck reset, several
people asked if that was practical considering how old and cheap it
was. (I paid $34 for it in 1963...pawn shop.)

But when I pointed out that it had an acre of Honduran mahogany in it,
a big chunk of spruce, and was bound in celluloid stuff, then the
rework seemed more logical.

Post by g***@yahoo.com
I had to do some bridge work on mine as well. I've
thought about doing a refret and adding a 'real' fingerboard
w/radius, but I'm having too much fun these days playing it as a lap
steel guitar.
I've only recently discovered how valuable this guitar is to me.
It's the only item I own that was made before my time (I'm 28) and
it's got personal history.

Twenty-eight? TWENTY-EIGHT?! Crap! EVERYTHING was built before your
time! But I know what you mean about valuable. I lugged that
Silvertone all over the world and now I would die to lose it.

That is why I bought the Fender flat top...to travel with. I got it
because I couldn't find a Gakki Yamaha. I got the Gakki and sold the
Fender...now after all the work on the Yamaha and how good it
sounds... So I got the blue guitar to travel with.

Driving to eat out last night, I mentioned to my wife, Bettie, that I
knew where there was a tenor, arch top Harmony that I might tender an
offer on and she said, "I thought you said when you got the blue
guitar you were 'through'."

I told her no, that statement didn't include tenor guitars because I
didn't have one of those. She just smiled and nodded that knowing
look at me. I don't think she was surprised that I mentioned another
guitar. <g> There is an Irma Thomas song that has the recurring
line, "the only person I fool is me." <g>

Post by g***@yahoo.com
Maybe it's too soon to reflect on its
being, but if there's a fire I'll know what to save... and that
will be my Martin... history shmistory :-)

Bad logic, Brian...you save what cannot be easily replaced. If my
blue guitar and tenor Fluke was stolen from my motel room, I could
have replacements on the way to me within an hour. <g>

Ken

[Steve]

Post by g***@yahoo.com
What up rmmga'ers?
I'm wondering if someone can identify my guitar in these photos. Mom
gave me this guitar when Bosco was a kitten (a long time ago) and
I've since used it for various guitar experiments throughout the
years which explains why it's so beat up and is living out its
remaining years as a lap steel guitar...
Anyhow, I asked her about it and she "thinks" it came from a
California Sears store in '69. I've always thought it was a
Silvertone but I haven't found any pictures on the net to verify my
hunch. What do you think?
BTW, the guitar had a 'French curve-like' pickguard that was
attached with three screws directly to the soundboard...yikes! Also, I
had to replace the original tuners with Grovers to make it a functional
instrument.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/guitarblather/my_photos
...and here is a sound clip: http://tinyurl.com/8sk4z It records
pretty well for a plywood guitar.
Thanks -Brian

Sears has used the following convention in their model numbers for many
years: Where the model number is:

XXX.YYYY

The "XXX" is a number that identifies the supplier of that product. If
you can find someone who knows what supplier was represented by "319" in
the 50's and 60's, you'll know who actually made the guitar.

The "YYYY" part of the model number can be four or more digits.

--Steve

[g***@yahoo.com]

Post by Steve
Sears has used the following convention in their model numbers for many
XXX.YYYY
The "XXX" is a number that identifies the supplier of that product. If
you can find someone who knows what supplier was represented by "319" in
the 50's and 60's, you'll know who actually made the guitar.
The "YYYY" part of the model number can be four or more digits.
--Steve

Check out this eBay listing http://tinyurl.com/kgf2s
The headstock is almost identical to mine and it's got the three
pickguard screws that I mentioned. This model is definitely a step up
compared to mine.

-Brian

[Ken Cashion]

Post by Steve

Post by g***@yahoo.com
What up rmmga'ers?
I'm wondering if someone can identify my guitar in these photos. Mom
gave me this guitar when Bosco was a kitten (a long time ago) and
I've since used it for various guitar experiments throughout the
years which explains why it's so beat up and is living out its
remaining years as a lap steel guitar...
Anyhow, I asked her about it and she "thinks" it came from a
California Sears store in '69. I've always thought it was a
Silvertone but I haven't found any pictures on the net to verify my
hunch. What do you think?
BTW, the guitar had a 'French curve-like' pickguard that was
attached with three screws directly to the soundboard...yikes! Also, I
had to replace the original tuners with Grovers to make it a functional
instrument.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/guitarblather/my_photos
...and here is a sound clip: http://tinyurl.com/8sk4z It records
pretty well for a plywood guitar.
Thanks -Brian

Sears has used the following convention in their model numbers for many
XXX.YYYY
The "XXX" is a number that identifies the supplier of that product. If
you can find someone who knows what supplier was represented by "319" in
the 50's and 60's, you'll know who actually made the guitar.
The "YYYY" part of the model number can be four or more digits.
--Steve

The only marking in my Silvertone is 1-56. I have a page from a 1956
Sears Catalog and it is there...only with a white pick guard. And it
is described correctly.

Also, to confuse things more...Jerry Jeff Walker had a guitar
identical to mine except it had "Steward" or maybe "Stewart" on the
patent head...and his had a crack in the top a credit card could fall
through. He always said that he demanded first refusal rights on my
Silvertone when I decided to sell it. I still haven't.

Ken