Accompanying fiddle tunes with guitar

[Chris Rockcliffe]

I describe myself as an intermediate player, and I've often attended
traditional tune sessions in the UK with a guitar and played around for fun.

But now I find myself doing it more seriously in order to perform in a band
playing a lot of this instrumental fiddle tune stuff. I like a challenge
musically. It's great music - I love it - but I'd be the first to admit I'm
still rather new to it as a performer and finding it a tad daunting to nail
so many tunes in a short time.

The fiddle player I'm playing with - Chris - is a brilliant musician. He
can play - or so it seems - (not far off) the entire catalogue of tunes from
Irish to Scottish to Canadian and American in a number of genres from
distinctly Celtic through Old-Timey and Appalachian to more contemporary
Texas Swing and jazz standards.

We've started playing tunes in our own band - Snakey Terrain - as part of
the mix and it's a great addition to the repertoire. But now fiddler
Chris's asked me to join him in another occasional line up - playing almost
all tunes.

In sessions one can play a C over an Am or even a G over an Em etc with
another guitarist or bouzouki and more or less get away with it. The new
difficulty is that I'll be playing with keyboards and that will show up any
discrepancies - as the keyboard man works from sheet music.

I play all these things in standard tuning - with a mix of picking,
alternating bass strings and strumming - with occasional runs, fills and
frills. Chris likes what I do and is very complimentary about my playing
which is of course very flattering coming from him - but I sometimes feel
like a tentative swimmer in an ocean swell.

Some tunes - O'Carolan's for instance - are very famous and memorable anyway
as are many US old timey fiddle tunes with a lot of swing to them. But
other tunes get me confused - blend into each other and my brain refuses to
'Get' the tune at all. My difficulty is in remembering them all - I've got
the dots and in some cases also keys and chords on sheets.

But they are played in sets (some established) which players put together
because they're deemed to work well. The sets change constantly too.

I've come a long way in a short time with this (there is a strong desire to
do so) - but I feel a bit out of my depth at times. I have no difficulty
playing any of the chords - although keys like Eb and Bb stretch me a bit or
making the changes fast or anything like that. (I try to avoid using a capo
if poss).

The problem is that although some of them are fairly simple, my ability to
concentrate on the repetitive changes seems to be limited. A secondary
problem is staying abreast of the A/B and even ABC parts of tunes and
sharpening up the changes often of key mid tune.

When it comes to songs I can't remember lyrics too well. I use crib sheets.
However the tunes feel as if they should be nailed from memory. I'm using
music and recordings to try and nail this, but I'm curious... (sorry for the
ramble) Has anyone else had such problems?

CR

[David Kilpatrick]

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
In sessions one can play a C over an Am or even a G over an Em etc with
another guitarist or bouzouki and more or less get away with it. The new
difficulty is that I'll be playing with keyboards and that will show up any
discrepancies - as the keyboard man works from sheet music.
When it comes to songs I can't remember lyrics too well. I use crib sheets.
However the tunes feel as if they should be nailed from memory. I'm using
music and recordings to try and nail this, but I'm curious... (sorry for the
ramble) Has anyone else had such problems?

Yes, definitely Chris. Keyboard and fiddle is not a good omen.
Accordions have a certain dissonance which gives the fiddle some freedom
to intonate, standard keyboards create too solid an equal temperament
sound, and the whole thing ends up sounding like a pub dance band.

Short answer is that with keyboards you may be stuffed. We have a very
fine keyboard player and I now have to make faces at him and tell him
NOT to use the progressions he is sticking into pipe tunes and fiddle
tunes. They are ruining the modality of the tunes and making them
bumptious manky la-la stuff. Can't explain it otherwise. Not the same
with a guitarist who sticks Shetland jazz chords behind fiddle tunes -
that has edge. It even works against normal guitar chords. In my case,
if the keyboard dictates a 'wrong' modality I will now just drop out. I
won't even attempt to accompany.

As for lyrics, same situation. I am useless with pop lyrics, great on
old ballads and off stuff no-one bothers with. I will not use crib
sheets for the stuff I do myself but carry some lyric books for Scots
songs which I do not know, which people request. I don't even touch the
Beatles/Eagles/Van stuff because every second guitar-singer around does
that perfectly well, and my memory bank is well enough equipped to do
harmony. I have absolutely no interest in leading that stuff myself.

If I need to learn a song, I do two things: I write it out, and I make a
recording. I then read what I have written, and listen to my recording,
a few times. Generally that nails it and the result sounds like the
recording too, which is a bonus - consistent phrasing and guitar part.
If I leave something unplayed for more than a year, I can forget the
guitar part entirely, even if I wrote it myself.

David

[Chris Rockcliffe]

David Kilpatrick6/6/05 1:29 AM

Post by David Kilpatrick

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
In sessions one can play a C over an Am or even a G over an Em etc with
another guitarist or bouzouki and more or less get away with it. The new
difficulty is that I'll be playing with keyboards and that will show up any
discrepancies - as the keyboard man works from sheet music.
When it comes to songs I can't remember lyrics too well. I use crib sheets.
However the tunes feel as if they should be nailed from memory. I'm using
music and recordings to try and nail this, but I'm curious... (sorry for the
ramble) Has anyone else had such problems?

Yes, definitely Chris. Keyboard and fiddle is not a good omen.
Accordions have a certain dissonance which gives the fiddle some freedom
to intonate, standard keyboards create too solid an equal temperament
sound, and the whole thing ends up sounding like a pub dance band.

Well that's going to be a new one for me. Although there are plenty of
Shetland type bands as well as Canadian bands using piano with guitar and
fiddles etc and can swing really well.

Post by David Kilpatrick
Short answer is that with keyboards you may be stuffed. We have a very
fine keyboard player and I now have to make faces at him and tell him
NOT to use the progressions he is sticking into pipe tunes and fiddle
tunes. They are ruining the modality of the tunes and making them
bumptious manky la-la stuff. Can't explain it otherwise.

I think I know what you mean here.

Post by David Kilpatrick
Not the same with a guitarist who sticks Shetland jazz chords behind fiddle
tunes - that has edge. It even works against normal guitar chords. In my case,
if the keyboard dictates a 'wrong' modality I will now just drop out. I won't
even attempt to accompany.

The modality of alternative stringed instrument tunings and piano would
definitely clash badly. But I play in standard tuning and straight chords -
either open 1st position or barre or mixed and I use occasional 9ths on some
tunes - especially rags etc.

I'm hoping we get the chance for a proper rehearsal playing together before
the gig next month but I doubt it. It pays well, so I don't want to turn it
down.

Post by David Kilpatrick
As for lyrics, same situation. I am useless with pop lyrics, great on
old ballads and off stuff no-one bothers with. I will not use crib
sheets for the stuff I do myself but carry some lyric books for Scots
songs which I do not know, which people request. I don't even touch the
Beatles/Eagles/Van stuff because every second guitar-singer around does
that perfectly well, and my memory bank is well enough equipped to do
harmony. I have absolutely no interest in leading that stuff myself.

We recently did a gig to about 100 people in a big marquee - which was a new
thing for me. That of playing/singing some songs that the folk club crowd
think are entirely naff and worthy of ridicule, but which the great unwashed
- and lots of audiences think are marvelous.

The audience didn't warm to us until the third set when we started playing
what they wanted to hear and stomp along to. Anything with *Rover* in it
for starters. I.e. The Wild Rover, The Irish Rover, The Gypsy Rover.
Anything with the word Whisky or whiskey in the title i.e. Nancy Whisky;
Whiskey in the Jar etc. I think you know where I'm coming from.

Post by David Kilpatrick
If I need to learn a song, I do two things: I write it out, and I make a
recording. I then read what I have written, and listen to my recording,
a few times. Generally that nails it and the result sounds like the
recording too, which is a bonus - consistent phrasing and guitar part.

Good advice about making a recording - I'm using the mini disc a lot. In
fact the band are on the local radio this morning about 11.30 with a mini
disc track recorded in my living room last Friday. Hope it comes over OK.

Post by David Kilpatrick
If I leave something unplayed for more than a year, I can forget the
guitar part entirely, even if I wrote it myself.

I glad I'm not the only one with mild early dementia !!

At the last gig, a young girl drunk and dancing around, jumped on the stage
and ripped off her top. She stood in front of Bernie our banjo player and
shimmied her breasts in front of him... (a fine pair - firm and pert they
were too) But Bernie is made of strong stuff - never missed a note.

I'm not sure I'm cut out for this rock and roll lifestyle. :-)

CR

Post by David Kilpatrick
David

[David Kilpatrick]

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
Well that's going to be a new one for me. Although there are plenty of
Shetland type bands as well as Canadian bands using piano with guitar and
fiddles etc and can swing really well.

Piano - slightly detuned - is very popular for Cape Breton and Novia
Scotia, Prince Edward Island etc music. A concert-tuned piano (aka
electronic keyboard) is not so good! In Scotland using a piano with
fiddle tunes is associated with school experiences and not much liked.
Alan Reid is one of the few players of electronic keyboards who has the
right stuff to make them work (Battlefield Band) and locally Harris
Playfair has used piano/keyboard to underpin some of the best new young
trad-celtic kids, BBC awards nominees etc. Both play EXTREMELY quietly
and with heavy damping and rhythmic emphasis, and tend to replace the
bass rather than replacing rythm guitar - which is already tending
towards being a bass register instrument itself.

Problems mainly occur when the keyboard player does too much right hand
stuff and the guitar is using the Shetland chord shapes, which are high
up the neck and based on moving jazz chords.

From what you say, I would imagine your fiddle/piano style will be
going towards chord-per-beat stuff - many changes - which is an
old-fashioned ceilidh style. Modern bands tend towards one chord per bar
or phrase style with a strong rythm and persistent high/low drone
(cittern, zouk or guitar in DADGAD especially) and keyboard players find
this not their sort of thing. Think George Duff accompanying a fiddle
tune the way he accompanies song. That's the 'mode' which piano can so
easily make impossible!

PS: I've heard George accompanying fiddle, banjo and CBOM and getting
accompaniment back to his songs, at Edin Folk Club, and it's what
Scottish music should sound like. Not all that Victorian bumpy chordy
plonking!

David

[Chris Rockcliffe]

David Kilpatrick6/6/05 11:08 AM

Post by David Kilpatrick

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
Well that's going to be a new one for me. Although there are plenty of
Shetland type bands as well as Canadian bands using piano with guitar and
fiddles etc and can swing really well.

Piano - slightly detuned - is very popular for Cape Breton and Novia
Scotia, Prince Edward Island etc music. A concert-tuned piano (aka
electronic keyboard) is not so good! In Scotland using a piano with
fiddle tunes is associated with school experiences and not much liked.

I remember seeing Ally Bain and US fiddler Jay Ungar playing in Shetland on
a TV programme with a slightly out of tune piano plonking away in the
background.

Post by David Kilpatrick
Alan Reid is one of the few players of electronic keyboards who has the
right stuff to make them work (Battlefield Band) and locally Harris
Playfair has used piano/keyboard to underpin some of the best new young
trad-celtic kids, BBC awards nominees etc. Both play EXTREMELY quietly
and with heavy damping and rhythmic emphasis, and tend to replace the
bass rather than replacing rythm guitar - which is already tending
towards being a bass register instrument itself.

The first time I heard the Orkney Island-based Wrigley Sisters in concert -
about 1997/98 - I was amazed at just how well their fiddle, plus Hardanger
fiddle and viola blended in with their electronic keyboards on all kinds of
material.

Post by David Kilpatrick
Problems mainly occur when the keyboard player does too much right hand
stuff and the guitar is using the Shetland chord shapes, which are high
up the neck and based on moving jazz chords.

Yes as a rhythm accompaniment to Celtic style, it works better.

Post by David Kilpatrick
From what you say, I would imagine your fiddle/piano style will be
going towards chord-per-beat stuff - many changes - which is an
old-fashioned ceilidh style. Modern bands tend towards one chord per bar
or phrase style with a strong rythm and persistent high/low drone
(cittern, zouk or guitar in DADGAD especially) and keyboard players find
this not their sort of thing. Think George Duff accompanying a fiddle
tune the way he accompanies song. That's the 'mode' which piano can so
easily make impossible!

Apropo that you should mention George D. I was talking to him about this
yesterday. George plays mostly in DADGAD, but he was basically saying what
you are saying - that standard tuning among others in Celtic is fine - all
are OK as long as one gets the feel right.

How my approach - bass picking and strumming - will work with a piano player
whom I haven't yet heard - or if I have I don't remember - I don't rightly
know. Could be interesting. These days I'm generally in YES mode rather
than bottling out of unsure situations.

Post by David Kilpatrick
PS: I've heard George accompanying fiddle, banjo and CBOM and getting
accompaniment back to his songs, at Edin Folk Club, and it's what
Scottish music should sound like. Not all that Victorian bumpy chordy
plonking!

CBOM ??? I'm slow today... George brought Scottish based English fiddler
Andrew Lyons down to UK8 Hargate Hall and it was a real treat to have him
there - a fantastic musician who moved from classical training to Celtic -
not always an easy transition. I was also reminded how having a smattering
of other instruments, fiddles, banjos, mandolins, bouzoukis, bass... Can
enhance a guitar gathering.

Cheers.
CR

Post by David Kilpatrick
David

[Peter MacDonald]

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
CBOM ??? I'm slow today

Cittern - Bouzouki - Octave Mandolin

Peter

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Peter MacDonald6/6/05 5:35 PM

Post by Peter MacDonald

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
CBOM ??? I'm slow today

Cittern - Bouzouki - Octave Mandolin
Peter

Thanks Peter,

Something else new learned today.

CR

[hank alrich]

Post by Chris Rockcliffe

Post by David Kilpatrick

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
In sessions one can play a C over an Am or even a G over an Em etc with
another guitarist or bouzouki and more or less get away with it. The
new difficulty is that I'll be playing with keyboards and that will
show up any discrepancies - as the keyboard man works from sheet music.
When it comes to songs I can't remember lyrics too well. I use crib
sheets. However the tunes feel as if they should be nailed from memory.
I'm using music and recordings to try and nail this, but I'm curious...
(sorry for the ramble) Has anyone else had such problems?

Yes, definitely Chris. Keyboard and fiddle is not a good omen.
Accordions have a certain dissonance which gives the fiddle some freedom
to intonate, standard keyboards create too solid an equal temperament
sound, and the whole thing ends up sounding like a pub dance band.

Well that's going to be a new one for me. Although there are plenty of
Shetland type bands as well as Canadian bands using piano with guitar and
fiddles etc and can swing really well.

It's not about the instrument; it's about the player's ability to play
idiomatically.

--
ha

[Harvey Gerst]

Post by hank alrich
It's not about the instrument; it's about the player's ability to play
idiomatically.

"idiomatically"? Leave my "ma" out of it, and you've nailed my playing
style.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

[a***@contractorcom.com]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 00:29:51 +0000 (UTC), David Kilpatrick
<***@btconnect.com> wrote:
(snip)

Post by David Kilpatrick
Short answer is that with keyboards you may be stuffed.

(and more snippage)

David is absolutely right. Fire the keyboard player, stick to
instruments you can pluck or blow.

Pete

[Tom from Texas]

My dad gave me the same advice about dating.

Oh, wait.... yall wrote pluck.

Nevermind.
--
Tom from Texas
(The Tom Risner Fund for Deserving North Texas Guitarplayers takes no
responsibility for any hurt feelings, damage to equipment or pets due to
spewed beverages, or the opinions expressed in posts. And if yall don't
like it ye can kiss my grits.)

Post by a***@contractorcom.com
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 00:29:51 +0000 (UTC), David Kilpatrick
(snip)

Post by David Kilpatrick
Short answer is that with keyboards you may be stuffed.

(and more snippage)
David is absolutely right. Fire the keyboard player, stick to
instruments you can pluck or blow.
Pete

[Mike brown]

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
I describe myself as an intermediate player, and I've often attended
traditional tune sessions in the UK with a guitar and played around for fun.
But now I find myself doing it more seriously in order to perform in a band
playing a lot of this instrumental fiddle tune stuff. I like a challenge
musically. It's great music - I love it - but I'd be the first to admit I'm
still rather new to it as a performer and finding it a tad daunting to nail
so many tunes in a short time.
The fiddle player I'm playing with - Chris - is a brilliant musician. He
can play - or so it seems - (not far off) the entire catalogue of tunes from
Irish to Scottish to Canadian and American in a number of genres from
distinctly Celtic through Old-Timey and Appalachian to more contemporary
Texas Swing and jazz standards.
We've started playing tunes in our own band - Snakey Terrain - as part of
the mix and it's a great addition to the repertoire. But now fiddler
Chris's asked me to join him in another occasional line up - playing almost
all tunes.
In sessions one can play a C over an Am or even a G over an Em etc with
another guitarist or bouzouki and more or less get away with it. The new
difficulty is that I'll be playing with keyboards and that will show up any
discrepancies - as the keyboard man works from sheet music.
I play all these things in standard tuning - with a mix of picking,
alternating bass strings and strumming - with occasional runs, fills and
frills. Chris likes what I do and is very complimentary about my playing
which is of course very flattering coming from him - but I sometimes feel
like a tentative swimmer in an ocean swell.
Some tunes - O'Carolan's for instance - are very famous and memorable anyway
as are many US old timey fiddle tunes with a lot of swing to them. But
other tunes get me confused - blend into each other and my brain refuses to
'Get' the tune at all. My difficulty is in remembering them all - I've got
the dots and in some cases also keys and chords on sheets.
But they are played in sets (some established) which players put together
because they're deemed to work well. The sets change constantly too.
I've come a long way in a short time with this (there is a strong desire to
do so) - but I feel a bit out of my depth at times. I have no difficulty
playing any of the chords - although keys like Eb and Bb stretch me a bit or
making the changes fast or anything like that. (I try to avoid using a capo
if poss).
The problem is that although some of them are fairly simple, my ability to
concentrate on the repetitive changes seems to be limited. A secondary
problem is staying abreast of the A/B and even ABC parts of tunes and
sharpening up the changes often of key mid tune.
When it comes to songs I can't remember lyrics too well. I use crib sheets.
However the tunes feel as if they should be nailed from memory. I'm using
music and recordings to try and nail this, but I'm curious... (sorry for the
ramble) Has anyone else had such problems?
CR

Good luck Chris.

MJRB

[hank alrich]

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
I've come a long way in a short time with this (there is a strong desire to
do so) - but I feel a bit out of my depth at times. I have no difficulty
playing any of the chords - although keys like Eb and Bb stretch me a bit or
making the changes fast or anything like that. (I try to avoid using a capo
if poss).

Unless there is a good reason other than just liking a challenge, use a
capo if it helps you get going _now_ playing the song, and don't bother
to remove it unless you don't really want the open chord sound. For
example, I'll capo right up for folk, fiddle and such, and not for swing
and jazz.

You're going to be deeply into musical enjoyment. Eventually the
repetitiveness, almost like looping, of good fiddle sets gets into
rockin' deep mantraesque terrain.

--
ha

[Chris Rockcliffe]

hank alrich6/6/05 3:35 PM

Post by hank alrich

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
I've come a long way in a short time with this (there is a strong desire to
do so) - but I feel a bit out of my depth at times. I have no difficulty
playing any of the chords - although keys like Eb and Bb stretch me a bit or
making the changes fast or anything like that. (I try to avoid using a capo
if poss).

Unless there is a good reason other than just liking a challenge, use a
capo if it helps you get going _now_ playing the song, and don't bother
to remove it unless you don't really want the open chord sound. For
example, I'll capo right up for folk, fiddle and such, and not for swing
and jazz.

I hear you and you're right of course... BUT... try learning a tune on the
fly in a given key from dots and underlying chord names whilst
simultaneously using a capo and transposing to other chord shapes and
chord/key configurations...

I can do it with something in B or say F capoed up for open E shape say -
but in C try capoing up 4 in A with some unusual changes to an unusual tune.
Some people are that clever - and I'm not. My brain lags behind my fingers.

Post by hank alrich
You're going to be deeply into musical enjoyment. Eventually the
repetitiveness, almost like looping, of good fiddle sets gets into
rockin' deep mantraesque terrain.

A nice way of putting it. It happened recently on stage - got into the
grinning groove - and then wollop !! a change of key when I least expected
it. I suppose the trick is not to look too surprised on stage. This stuff
does keep you on your toes sometimes.

CR

Post by hank alrich
ha

[r***@aol.com]

Chris

Allow me to introduce you to the universal chord sequence for backing
up fiddle tunes - reels or jigs - in major keys.

First remember that all fiddle tunes count in eighth notes and have two
main beats in the bar - ONE-two-three-four -TWO-two-three-four for
reels and ONE-two-three-TWO-two-three for jigs ... or
One-a-ra-na-TWO-a-ra-na ..... ONE-a-na-TWO-a-na at speed...

While I remember .... Minor Tunes - if the fiddle player shouts "Em"
then you're playing Em and D - transpose to the other keys Am/Bm/Dm etc
so if he shouts "Am" instead, you know what to play. If the thing
sounds like it needs more chords then remember that the minor is
(almost always) the 6th of the major scale that the minor tune is
derived from so in Em you can choose from G, Am, Bm, C, D and Em and
you can use D instead of the funny F# half-diminished thingy that Guy
knows - again transpose to all other keys.....

.... oh yes, do learn your chord scales in D, G and A - that covers
most fiddle tunes except the Scott Skinner ones in silly keys...if your
fiddler starts playing those...buy a capo or head for the bar.....

Major tunes are mostly chorded with the I IV V chords (eg D G A) and
you can usually hear the changes coming - if in doubt play very
percussively - damp the strings and make like a snare drum... There is
also the modal thing you get occasionally often in US old-time tunes
where the chords are (for example) G and F... but I know you sing a few
of these so you'll know this already....

Fiddle tunes are usually played AABBAABB etc until the fiddler shouts
change where it all begins again and usually in a different key... if
the first tune is in D the second will probably be in G .....

The universal chord sequence for major tunes - which most piano players
know - but you'll have to kill yourself if you tell the banjo player -
is: (2 beats per chord in a reel - ie played boom-chuck style - and
A/C# means an A chord with a C# in the bass))

D A/C# | G/B D/A | G D/F# | Em7 A7 |
D A/C# | G/B D/A | G D/F# | A7/E D |

and repeat as necesary until you've worked out what the chords really
are :-) ... think about it while you're playing though ..... is the G/B
a Bm? D/F# an F#m? is Em7 better as a G? am I playing too many chords?
does the B part start on a G or an A and therefore change the first
couple of bars of each section?

Seriously, the bass line is the important bit here, you want to get
that out cleanly and the listener's ear will be fooled even if the
chord isn't quite right - just don't let the chords ring - keep them
short and percussive... then work out the chords as you pick up the
tune ...

If you want an idea for a resource - Peter Barnes' book Interview With
a Vamper is one of the better ones - aimed at piano players but full of
chord ideas ....

Enjoy

Bob

PS - just to give your ear a workout and to point out how you can
change fiddle tunes by moving the chord base around - if your fiddle
player knows The Butterfly (which is in Em) try accompanying it using
Am7 and Bm7 instead of Em and the D and once you've got it down try
switching to Em and D and then back to Am7 and Bm7 ...

[a***@contractorcom.com]

Post by r***@aol.com
Chris
Allow me to introduce you to the universal chord sequence for backing
up fiddle tunes - reels or jigs - in major keys.
First remember that all fiddle tunes count in eighth notes and have two
main beats in the bar - ONE-two-three-four -TWO-two-three-four for
reels and ONE-two-three-TWO-two-three for jigs ... or
One-a-ra-na-TWO-a-ra-na ..... ONE-a-na-TWO-a-na at speed...
While I remember .... Minor Tunes - if the fiddle player shouts "Em"
then you're playing Em and D - transpose to the other keys Am/Bm/Dm etc
so if he shouts "Am" instead, you know what to play. If the thing
sounds like it needs more chords then remember that the minor is
(almost always) the 6th of the major scale that the minor tune is
derived from so in Em you can choose from G, Am, Bm, C, D and Em and
you can use D instead of the funny F# half-diminished thingy that Guy
knows - again transpose to all other keys.....
.... oh yes, do learn your chord scales in D, G and A - that covers
most fiddle tunes except the Scott Skinner ones in silly keys...if your
fiddler starts playing those...buy a capo or head for the bar.....
Major tunes are mostly chorded with the I IV V chords (eg D G A) and
you can usually hear the changes coming - if in doubt play very
percussively - damp the strings and make like a snare drum... There is
also the modal thing you get occasionally often in US old-time tunes
where the chords are (for example) G and F... but I know you sing a few
of these so you'll know this already....
Fiddle tunes are usually played AABBAABB etc until the fiddler shouts
change where it all begins again and usually in a different key... if
the first tune is in D the second will probably be in G .....
The universal chord sequence for major tunes - which most piano players
know - but you'll have to kill yourself if you tell the banjo player -
is: (2 beats per chord in a reel - ie played boom-chuck style - and
A/C# means an A chord with a C# in the bass))
D A/C# | G/B D/A | G D/F# | Em7 A7 |
D A/C# | G/B D/A | G D/F# | A7/E D |
and repeat as necesary until you've worked out what the chords really
are :-) ... think about it while you're playing though ..... is the G/B
a Bm? D/F# an F#m? is Em7 better as a G? am I playing too many chords?
does the B part start on a G or an A and therefore change the first
couple of bars of each section?
Seriously, the bass line is the important bit here, you want to get
that out cleanly and the listener's ear will be fooled even if the
chord isn't quite right - just don't let the chords ring - keep them
short and percussive... then work out the chords as you pick up the
tune ...
If you want an idea for a resource - Peter Barnes' book Interview With
a Vamper is one of the better ones - aimed at piano players but full of
chord ideas ....
Enjoy
Bob
PS - just to give your ear a workout and to point out how you can
change fiddle tunes by moving the chord base around - if your fiddle
player knows The Butterfly (which is in Em) try accompanying it using
Am7 and Bm7 instead of Em and the D and once you've got it down try
switching to Em and D and then back to Am7 and Bm7 ...

I wish I'd read the above 15 years ago when I first started playing
with a ceildhi band..:-)

Pete

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Post by r***@aol.com
Chris
Allow me to introduce you to the universal chord sequence for backing
up fiddle tunes - reels or jigs - in major keys.
First remember that all fiddle tunes count in eighth notes and have two
main beats in the bar - ONE-two-three-four -TWO-two-three-four for
reels and ONE-two-three-TWO-two-three for jigs ... or
One-a-ra-na-TWO-a-ra-na ..... ONE-a-na-TWO-a-na at speed...
While I remember .... Minor Tunes - if the fiddle player shouts "Em"
then you're playing Em and D - transpose to the other keys Am/Bm/Dm etc
so if he shouts "Am" instead, you know what to play. If the thing
sounds like it needs more chords then remember that the minor is
(almost always) the 6th of the major scale that the minor tune is
derived from so in Em you can choose from G, Am, Bm, C, D and Em and
you can use D instead of the funny F# half-diminished thingy that Guy
knows - again transpose to all other keys.....
.... oh yes, do learn your chord scales in D, G and A - that covers
most fiddle tunes except the Scott Skinner ones in silly keys...if your
fiddler starts playing those...buy a capo or head for the bar.....
Major tunes are mostly chorded with the I IV V chords (eg D G A) and
you can usually hear the changes coming - if in doubt play very
percussively - damp the strings and make like a snare drum... There is
also the modal thing you get occasionally often in US old-time tunes
where the chords are (for example) G and F... but I know you sing a few
of these so you'll know this already....
Fiddle tunes are usually played AABBAABB etc until the fiddler shouts
change where it all begins again and usually in a different key... if
the first tune is in D the second will probably be in G .....
The universal chord sequence for major tunes - which most piano players
know - but you'll have to kill yourself if you tell the banjo player -
is: (2 beats per chord in a reel - ie played boom-chuck style - and
A/C# means an A chord with a C# in the bass))
D A/C# | G/B D/A | G D/F# | Em7 A7 |
D A/C# | G/B D/A | G D/F# | A7/E D |
and repeat as necesary until you've worked out what the chords really
are :-) ... think about it while you're playing though ..... is the G/B
a Bm? D/F# an F#m? is Em7 better as a G? am I playing too many chords?
does the B part start on a G or an A and therefore change the first
couple of bars of each section?
Seriously, the bass line is the important bit here, you want to get
that out cleanly and the listener's ear will be fooled even if the
chord isn't quite right - just don't let the chords ring - keep them
short and percussive... then work out the chords as you pick up the
tune ...
If you want an idea for a resource - Peter Barnes' book Interview With
a Vamper is one of the better ones - aimed at piano players but full of
chord ideas ....
Enjoy
Bob

Thanks Bob,

That¹s a very useful and very amusing post...

Post by r***@aol.com
PS - just to give your ear a workout and to point out how you can
change fiddle tunes by moving the chord base around - if your fiddle
player knows The Butterfly (which is in Em) try accompanying it using
Am7 and Bm7 instead of Em and the D and once you've got it down try
switching to Em and D and then back to Am7 and Bm7 ...

Strangely enough, I was doing exactly this today on a tune written by the
fiddle player and provided as an mp3. I was trying to work out from the
fiddle melody line what chords worked - and there were several ways of
playing it to add colour and texture to it. In this case I'll be interested
to ask the tune writer what HE wants.

in the *A* part:
1. I could play only the very obvious Em and D chords
2. Or add an Am minor at the end of each segment to add colour
3. Or add a C near the end of each segment to provide more contrast
4. Or add an B7 or B9 at the end of each segment to provide punctuation
5. Or add an Bm minor at the end of each segment to add colour but in a more
modal sounding vein.

In the B part:
1. I could play just D and G or interchange with an Em again
2. OR play an occasional Am or Bm for texture.

I didn't even try a diminished in there; but there would have been a couple
of opportunities.

I'm going to try and see what Chris says about these different sounds -
because that's what they are - subtly different tonal values.

Fairly recently I watched a young Irish guitarist - Jim Murray - playing in
Sharon Shannon's trio (tenor banjo and squeezebox) and he was wonderful -
almost jazz in one sense. I guess there is huge potential creativity in
there. But not as flexible in an ensemble with a keyboard playing a fixed
pattern I guess.

What I want to avoid are the really bad audible clashes and you have some
good tips on how to avoid those. I also know you have ALL the T-shirts on
this one !!

Cheers Bob,

CR

[stv]

Hi,

Great thread!

Where can I find more info on the Shetland/Orkney jazz-chord idioms?

Thanks,

stv
http:/www.cdbaby.com/Culchies

[David Kilpatrick]

Shetland only, Orkney refers to a low C guitar tuning and it's the
'Shetland swing' thing which has become very popular in Scotland for
fiddle accompaniment.

I have no idea where you find out, because locals have to go to
workshops to learn this stuff directly, and as far as I know it's almost
entirely been passed on by direct teaching.

David

Post by stv
Hi,
Great thread!
Where can I find more info on the Shetland/Orkney jazz-chord idioms?
Thanks,
stv
http:/www.cdbaby.com/Culchies

[Cams]

Post by r***@aol.com
Chris
Allow me to introduce you to the universal chord sequence for backing
up fiddle tunes - reels or jigs - in major keys.

<snip>

Absolutely terrific post, Bob. I learned a lot from that and shall
archive it until such time as I understand it (which, as I'm reading
Bruce Emery's Skeptical Guitarist books, will hopefully not be too long!)

And thanks Chris for starting such an interesting thread. Best of luck
with your new venture. Having seen and heard you perform with Bernie,
I'm sure you'll be great. Good to hear Bernie's not distracted by a good
pair of breasts either!

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Cams8/6/05 5:30 PM

Post by Cams

Post by r***@aol.com
Chris
Allow me to introduce you to the universal chord sequence for backing
up fiddle tunes - reels or jigs - in major keys.

<snip>
Absolutely terrific post, Bob. I learned a lot from that and shall
archive it until such time as I understand it (which, as I'm reading
Bruce Emery's Skeptical Guitarist books, will hopefully not be too long!)

Thanks Cams,

There is a shorthand to learn -that Bob pointed out and listening to tunes
without rhythm accompaniment is very useful too.

Bob's post is great and if anyone knows, Bob knows.

Post by Cams
And thanks Chris for starting such an interesting thread. Best of luck
with your new venture. Having seen and heard you perform with Bernie,
I'm sure you'll be great. Good to hear Bernie's not distracted by a good
pair of breasts either!

As for Bernie, well sadly I lied. He WAS distracted totally by the young
lady's décolleté and her je ne sais quoi. In fact we have another gig for
the same crowd booked for Sept. and he's getting very excited already. In
fact, I'm worried he may peak too early.

CR

[Joe Carpenter]

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
Cams8/6/05 5:30 PM

Post by Cams
Absolutely terrific post, Bob. I learned a lot from that and shall
archive it until such time as I understand it (which, as I'm reading
Bruce Emery's Skeptical Guitarist books, will hopefully not be too long!)

I agree with Cams....great post. But, kudo's to Chris for one of
the best lines of the year with;

"At the last gig, a young girl drunk and dancing around, jumped on the
stage
and ripped off her top. She stood in front of Bernie our banjo player
and
shimmied her breasts in front of him... (a fine pair - firm and pert
they
were too) But Bernie is made of strong stuff - never missed a note.

"I'm not sure I'm cut out for this rock and roll lifestyle. :-) "



I can see Bernie's eyeballs clicking now..... <g>


Regards,
Joe


http://www.joe-carpenter.com
6 & 12 String Guitar

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Joe Carpenter9/6/05 11:22 PM

Post by Joe Carpenter
I can see Bernie's eyeballs clicking now..... <g>

Shh... We've only just got him calmed down !

CR

[David Kilpatrick]

Bet he wishes he's learned that fret-tapping one handed playing
technique though...

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
Joe Carpenter9/6/05 11:22 PM

Post by Joe Carpenter
I can see Bernie's eyeballs clicking now..... <g>

Shh... We've only just got him calmed down !
CR

[r***@rogers.com]

There's an excellent guitar book that provides a lot of useful
information about accompanying Irish Trad Music. It's aimed at ALL
accompanists, and I found it very useful for my guitar accompaniment
in MORE than Irish Trad...

" Celtic Back-Up for All Instrumentalists"
by Chris Smith
published by Mel Bay , with companion CD (99 tracks) to illustrate
specific techniques discussed in the book.


In my more than 40 years of playing stringed instruments--and
purchasing countless how-to books, I find THIS book has been one of
the most informative and useful to me.

Here's a quote from a review by Lee Marsh on the discussion group:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=314&view=next


"This is the first tutor I've seen on playing Irish music by ear.
IMHO, A book that should be on every beginning session player's must
read book: a tutorial, a guide, and a reference.

Chris' stated purpose for the book is to help the instrumental session
musician "to play tasteful, interesting, imaginative, and supportive
improvised accompaniment".
The book covers theory, Celtic rhythms, Celtic harmonies, Keys and
their modes. It provide nice notation and explanations but also
integrate training the ear to hear the Irish. Exercises and
explanations include hearing the various rhythms associated with the
various forms such as hornpipes, jigs, reels, etc. It has a wide
variety of harmony approaches organized in a 15 point plan and
exercises for each of the approaches. The CD has 99 tracks including
tracks that just demonstrate each of the rhythms, each of the 15
approaches, the tones in each of the keys, the tones in each of the
modes, as well as some practice sets of tunes.

One of the foci of the book is on being able to accompany songs in
sessions where you are hearing the melody for the first time. Playing
by ear, what to look for, what does it sound like, what does it mean,
what to avoid.

The book is written primarily for stringed accompaniment like guitar,
bouzouki, mandolin, piano but applies to any instrumental
accompanyment.
This is the best twenty buck's I've spent on learning Irish music.
The book is available at the Whistle Shop on-line and Lark in the
Morning.
Hope this helps you to Enjoy Your Music..."




Best Regards,
Rich McCarthy



On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 01:10:15 +0100, Chris Rockcliffe

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
I describe myself as an intermediate player, and I've often attended
traditional tune sessions in the UK with a guitar and played around for fun.
But now I find myself doing it more seriously in order to perform in a band
playing a lot of this instrumental fiddle tune stuff. I like a challenge
musically. It's great music - I love it - but I'd be the first to admit I'm
still rather new to it as a performer and finding it a tad daunting to nail
so many tunes in a short time.
The fiddle player I'm playing with - Chris - is a brilliant musician. He
can play - or so it seems - (not far off) the entire catalogue of tunes from
Irish to Scottish to Canadian and American in a number of genres from
distinctly Celtic through Old-Timey and Appalachian to more contemporary
Texas Swing and jazz standards.
We've started playing tunes in our own band - Snakey Terrain - as part of
the mix and it's a great addition to the repertoire. But now fiddler
Chris's asked me to join him in another occasional line up - playing almost
all tunes.

...The problem is that although some of them are fairly simple, my
ability to concentrate on the repetitive changes seems to be limited.
A secondary problem is staying abreast of the A/B and even ABC parts
of tunes and sharpening up the changes often of key mid tune.
When it comes to songs I can't remember lyrics too well. I use crib
sheets. However the tunes feel as if they should be nailed from
memory. I'm using music and recordings to try and nail this, but I'm
curious... (sorry for the ramble) Has anyone else had such problems?

Post by Chris Rockcliffe
CR

[Rick Ruskin]

To hear something completely different in the way of traditional
fiddle tune accomaniment, check out "The Gospel According To," my
latest CD with Vivian Williams on fiddle. It should be of specific
interest to fingerpickers because the style is rarely, if ever used in
this setting.


Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music - Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com

[Chris Rockcliffe]

I spent 8 hours yesterday at FiddleHell 2 here in Buxton. The late
afternoon and early part of the evening was an extended circle session with
some really cracking fiddlers - several from continental Europe.

I was the only rhythm instrument there (not sure why) and I played or just
listened and learned a lot by doing so. I need to get up to speed with
guitar accompaniment for fiddle tunes (covered in another thread) so this
was a good opportunity.

Found myself giving a guitar lesson on fiddle accompaniment to a nine year
old - which is somewhat ironic - but you don't need a sign on your forehead
to say *certified guitar teacher*, to impart something worthwhile...

(Snipped) from a post of mine the other day in the 'Bluegrass whiskey'
thread...

Dale's fiddle tunes - he played many and he wrote several - will be played
this weekend. I've been asked to accompany our band fiddle player, Chris on
Dale's own Bodine's Waltz tomorrow - a bluesy little piece among others.

...a little follow up...

Well later I was asked up to the stage by Chris to play guitar to his
fiddle. So I'm thinking he'll play some of the tunes we've been playing and
I've been learning. NO he proceeds to play 6 tunes - 5 of which I don't
know at all - (this with 100 people watching) and it was like driving down a
road wearing a blindfold...

The late Dale Hopkins - the absent American guest of honour from Missouri -
was - I thought - definitely there in spirit as right at the end of the
night about 18 fiddles - (the youngest aged 7, the eldest 70) played Dale's
excellent 'Bodine's Waltz'. They wrung every nuance out of the tune and
added more harmony than I've heard from massed fiddles before. It was a
fitting end to the day.

Dale would have liked it a lot !!

CR

[Chris Rockcliffe]

Post by r***@rogers.com
There's an excellent guitar book that provides a lot of useful
information about accompanying Irish Trad Music. It's aimed at ALL
accompanists, and I found it very useful for my guitar accompaniment
in MORE than Irish Trad...
" Celtic Back-Up for All Instrumentalists"
by Chris Smith
published by Mel Bay , with companion CD (99 tracks) to illustrate
specific techniques discussed in the book.
In my more than 40 years of playing stringed instruments--and
purchasing countless how-to books, I find THIS book has been one of
the most informative and useful to me.
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=314&view=next
"This is the first tutor I've seen on playing Irish music by ear.
IMHO, A book that should be on every beginning session player's must
read book: a tutorial, a guide, and a reference.
Chris' stated purpose for the book is to help the instrumental session
musician "to play tasteful, interesting, imaginative, and supportive
improvised accompaniment".
The book covers theory, Celtic rhythms, Celtic harmonies, Keys and
their modes. It provide nice notation and explanations but also
integrate training the ear to hear the Irish. Exercises and
explanations include hearing the various rhythms associated with the
various forms such as hornpipes, jigs, reels, etc. It has a wide
variety of harmony approaches organized in a 15 point plan and
exercises for each of the approaches. The CD has 99 tracks including
tracks that just demonstrate each of the rhythms, each of the 15
approaches, the tones in each of the keys, the tones in each of the
modes, as well as some practice sets of tunes.
One of the foci of the book is on being able to accompany songs in
sessions where you are hearing the melody for the first time. Playing
by ear, what to look for, what does it sound like, what does it mean,
what to avoid.
The book is written primarily for stringed accompaniment like guitar,
bouzouki, mandolin, piano but applies to any instrumental
accompaniment.
This is the best twenty buck's I've spent on learning Irish music.
The book is available at the Whistle Shop on-line and Lark in the
Morning.
Hope this helps you to Enjoy Your Music..."

Thanks, I'll check that out, and it sounds like just the thing to help me
progress.

I also liked the bit in the review where it mentions *...integrate training
the ear to hear the Irish*...

I remember ace Celtic to bluegrass flatpicker Chris Newman - a guest at
RMMGA UK3. He was explaining briefly how playing the accentuated beats in
Irish music which if correctly inserted, not only improve the music, but are
an indication of one's understanding of Celtic rhythms especially if playing
in top Irish circles.

I seem to remember also one of the assembled (maybe one of our American
visitors) saying something about bluegrass having similar refined
accentuated beats. When you listen to the top players - it's certainly
there.

(Bob Dorgan, Charles Park and Al Evans were all there, so maybe one of them
will remember)

To be honest, I'll be happy right now just to play the right chords, fills
and frills with sharp changes and good anticipation.

CR

[a***@gmail.com]

Hi, I'm a beginner guitar player (by beginner I mean I hardly know anything). I want to learn how to play rhythm guitar for my two little girls. They play bluegrass fiddle tunes and are quite good for their ages. Where do I start?

[Nil]

Post by a***@gmail.com
Hi, I'm a beginner guitar player (by beginner I mean I hardly know
anything). I want to learn how to play rhythm guitar for my two
little girls. They play bluegrass fiddle tunes and are quite good
for their ages. Where do I start?

I suggest that you get at least a few lessons from a live instructor.
Once you have some foundational technique you're better equipped to
learn on your one. Best of all would be to continue your lessons for as
long as you have time and motivation.

[geoff]

Post by Nil

Post by a***@gmail.com
Hi, I'm a beginner guitar player (by beginner I mean I hardly know
anything). I want to learn how to play rhythm guitar for my two
little girls. They play bluegrass fiddle tunes and are quite good
for their ages. Where do I start?

I suggest that you get at least a few lessons from a live instructor.
Once you have some foundational technique you're better equipped to
learn on your one. Best of all would be to continue your lessons for as
long as you have time and motivation.

Yep, some (real ) lessons and practice to get slightly competent. Then a
few years more practice to get good.

Possibly (much) longer for fiddle which can sound painfully awful in the
hands of less than average player. Even average players can not be that
great on a bad day.

Not a case of "yesterday I couldn't even spell brain-surgeon and now I
is one".

geoff