Whats the diff between Carter style and crosspicking?

[Jerry Ranch]

[Steve Comeau]

"Jerry Ranch" <***@pioneer.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
Hi Jerry,

Carter style is a fingerpicking style associated with Mother Maybelle
Carter. She tended to pick out the melody of a song on the bass strings
with her thumb while providing the rhythmic fills on the treble strings with
her fingers.

Check out this page for a sound sample:
http://bluegrassguitar.com/learning/carterstyle.htm

Carter style is different than the alternating-thumb bass fingerpicking that
you hear in country-blues or folk/pop songs. In these songs, the thumb
typically keeps a quarter-note bass line going while the fingers pick out
the melody on the treble strings.


Crosspicking: A Definition:
From: http://www.folkofthewood.com/page1760.htm

"Crosspicking is an approach that utilizes a flatpick on mandolin or guitar.

With this approach, the flatpick plays a succession of notes without
repeating the same string twice. It can be compared to banjo playing in that
usually crosspicking involves rolls. For instance, on guitar you would play
a crosspicking forward roll by playing the "G" String followed by the "B"
and "E" Strings directly. Now, normally you would have a chord fretted
giving this pattern its own harmonious ring...

Now, you can also say that playing an arpeggio with a flatpick could be
considered crosspicking...this is true to a degree...although, the term
"crosspicking" itself denotes an approach commonly seen in Bluegrass as
played by both guitar and mandolin. And, even the character of crosspicking
is exemplified by a rolling sound which gives it its unique drive...the
drive being an essential component of Bluegrass music. Ultimately,
crosspicking can be used effectively in any style of music and can also be
an effective form of backup embellishments."

Hope that helps.

All the best,

Steve

[Jerry Ranch]

So, for example, Doc Watson would be crosspicking (on those pieces
he's not fingerpicking, of course)
Or are there different styles of flatpicking?
Jerry

Post by Steve Comeau
From: http://www.folkofthewood.com/page1760.htm
"Crosspicking is an approach that utilizes a flatpick on mandolin or guitar.
With this approach, the flatpick plays a succession of notes without
repeating the same string twice. It can be compared to banjo playing in that
usually crosspicking involves rolls. For instance, on guitar you would play
a crosspicking forward roll by playing the "G" String followed by the "B"
and "E" Strings directly. Now, normally you would have a chord fretted
giving this pattern its own harmonious ring...
Now, you can also say that playing an arpeggio with a flatpick could be
considered crosspicking...this is true to a degree...although, the term
"crosspicking" itself denotes an approach commonly seen in Bluegrass as
played by both guitar and mandolin. And, even the character of crosspicking
is exemplified by a rolling sound which gives it its unique drive...the
drive being an essential component of Bluegrass music. Ultimately,
crosspicking can be used effectively in any style of music and can also be
an effective form of backup embellishments."

[paul asbell]

Post by Jerry Ranch
So, for example, Doc Watson would be crosspicking (on those pieces
he's not fingerpicking, of course)
Or are there different styles of flatpicking?
Jerry

Post by Steve Comeau
From: http://www.folkofthewood.com/page1760.htm
"Crosspicking is an approach that utilizes a flatpick on mandolin or guitar.
With this approach, the flatpick plays a succession of notes without
repeating the same string twice. It can be compared to banjo playing in that
usually crosspicking involves rolls. For instance, on guitar you would play
a crosspicking forward roll by playing the "G" String followed by the "B"
and "E" Strings directly. Now, normally you would have a chord fretted
giving this pattern its own harmonious ring...
Now, you can also say that playing an arpeggio with a flatpick could be
considered crosspicking...this is true to a degree...although, the term
"crosspicking" itself denotes an approach commonly seen in Bluegrass as
played by both guitar and mandolin. And, even the character of crosspicking
is exemplified by a rolling sound which gives it its unique drive...the
drive being an essential component of Bluegrass music. Ultimately,
crosspicking can be used effectively in any style of music and can also be
an effective form of backup embellishments."

I'm gonna take a whack at this...

Crosspicking is almost always done w/ a flatpick... but most flatpicking
has only small amounts of crosspicking in it.

Doc's flatpicked fiddle tunes (or Norman Blake, Bryan sutton, Tony Rice,
et al) and the backup parts to them, as well as the rhythm accompaniment
to vocal bluegrass songs, are what most folks call "flatpicking".
Occasionally, in some parts, the picker tosses in a section in which
three repeated notes, usually an arpeggio of the chord, are played
repetitively. The actual METER is 4/4, and these notes are all
eighth-notes, so the 1st note of each repeated three note pattern
doesn't rhythmically "fall" on consistent strong beats- it sets up a
syncopated rhythm. This is exactly what a Scruggs-style banjo player
does w/ his 3-finger rolls... listen to bluegrass banjo, and you'll hear
a lot of that technique.

Anyway- the flatpicker occasionally imitates the effect of the 3-finger
banjo roll w/ his flatpick in his soloing- that's crosspicking.

mandolinists like J. McReynolds do it, too, as already noted.....

[John Youngblood]

Has Clarence White been mentioned in this thread? In the early sixties
he was the major progenitor of crosspicking as far I can recall, with
brilliant usage thereof on tunes such as Beamont Rag, Listen to the
Mockingbird, 9 lb hammer, I am a Pilgrim. His syncopated style of 2
downs and one-up (or whatever...?) represented a quantum leap from any
who might have dabbled previously. I'm sure Doc, et al, would agree, he
had no peer in that technique. History shouldn't be allowed to wander
on this point...

John Youngblood

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Post by Jerry Ranch
So, for example, Doc Watson would be crosspicking (on those pieces
he's not fingerpicking, of course)
Or are there different styles of flatpicking?
Jerry

Post by Steve Comeau
From: http://www.folkofthewood.com/page1760.htm
"Crosspicking is an approach that utilizes a flatpick on mandolin or guitar.
With this approach, the flatpick plays a succession of notes without
repeating the same string twice. It can be compared to banjo playing in that
usually crosspicking involves rolls. For instance, on guitar you would play
a crosspicking forward roll by playing the "G" String followed by the "B"
and "E" Strings directly. Now, normally you would have a chord fretted
giving this pattern its own harmonious ring...
Now, you can also say that playing an arpeggio with a flatpick could be
considered crosspicking...this is true to a degree...although, the term
"crosspicking" itself denotes an approach commonly seen in Bluegrass as
played by both guitar and mandolin. And, even the character of crosspicking
is exemplified by a rolling sound which gives it its unique drive...the
drive being an essential component of Bluegrass music. Ultimately,
crosspicking can be used effectively in any style of music and can also be
an effective form of backup embellishments."

I'm gonna take a whack at this...
Crosspicking is almost always done w/ a flatpick... but most flatpicking
has only small amounts of crosspicking in it.
Doc's flatpicked fiddle tunes (or Norman Blake, Bryan sutton, Tony Rice,
et al) and the backup parts to them, as well as the rhythm accompaniment
to vocal bluegrass songs, are what most folks call "flatpicking".
Occasionally, in some parts, the picker tosses in a section in which
three repeated notes, usually an arpeggio of the chord, are played
repetitively. The actual METER is 4/4, and these notes are all
eighth-notes, so the 1st note of each repeated three note pattern
doesn't rhythmically "fall" on consistent strong beats- it sets up a
syncopated rhythm. This is exactly what a Scruggs-style banjo player
does w/ his 3-finger rolls... listen to bluegrass banjo, and you'll hear
a lot of that technique.
Anyway- the flatpicker occasionally imitates the effect of the 3-finger
banjo roll w/ his flatpick in his soloing- that's crosspicking.
mandolinists like J. McReynolds do it, too, as already noted.....

[paul asbell]

I suppose I'd agree, too...

The stuff w/ the Colonels on "Livin' in the Past" was certainly smokin',
that's fer sure... and that was quite a while ago.

I'd be hard-pressed to say whether Doc was not doing similar stuff at
the time, though. The stuff on the 1st "Circle Be Unbroken", for
example, was fairly "state of the art" at that time, IIRC...


Paul

Post by John Youngblood
Has Clarence White been mentioned in this thread? In the early sixties
he was the major progenitor of crosspicking as far I can recall, with
brilliant usage thereof on tunes such as Beamont Rag, Listen to the
Mockingbird, 9 lb hammer, I am a Pilgrim. His syncopated style of 2
downs and one-up (or whatever...?) represented a quantum leap from any
who might have dabbled previously. I'm sure Doc, et al, would agree, he
had no peer in that technique. History shouldn't be allowed to wander
on this point...

Post by paul asbell

Post by Jerry Ranch
So, for example, Doc Watson would be crosspicking (on those pieces
he's not fingerpicking, of course)
Or are there different styles of flatpicking?
Jerry

I'm gonna take a whack at this...
Crosspicking is almost always done w/ a flatpick... but most flatpicking
has only small amounts of crosspicking in it.
Doc's flatpicked fiddle tunes (or Norman Blake, Bryan sutton, Tony Rice,
et al) and the backup parts to them, as well as the rhythm accompaniment
to vocal bluegrass songs, are what most folks call "flatpicking".
Occasionally, in some parts, the picker tosses in a section in which
three repeated notes, usually an arpeggio of the chord, are played
repetitively. The actual METER is 4/4, and these notes are all
eighth-notes, so the 1st note of each repeated three note pattern
doesn't rhythmically "fall" on consistent strong beats- it sets up a
syncopated rhythm. This is exactly what a Scruggs-style banjo player
does w/ his 3-finger rolls... listen to bluegrass banjo, and you'll hear
a lot of that technique.
Anyway- the flatpicker occasionally imitates the effect of the 3-finger
banjo roll w/ his flatpick in his soloing- that's crosspicking.
mandolinists like J. McReynolds do it, too, as already noted.....

[Jackhat1]

It doesn't sound like Carter style is fingerpicking when I listen to it. Are
you sure it is?

Jack

[John Youngblood]

Clarence stuff I heard was on reel-to-reel the 1964. An Ash Grove
performance that latter turned up in an album to my amazement. I love
Doc and worked on his leads note-for-note in the 60's too (no age
apologies here). The Circle be Unbroken album was in a different
(post-beatles!) era though, maybe 10 yrs. later. I don't think you've
heard the Clarence stuff I'm talking about...

John Youngblood

Post by paul asbell
I suppose I'd agree, too...
The stuff w/ the Colonels on "Livin' in the Past" was certainly smokin',
that's fer sure... and that was quite a while ago.
I'd be hard-pressed to say whether Doc was not doing similar stuff at
the time, though. The stuff on the 1st "Circle Be Unbroken", for
example, was fairly "state of the art" at that time, IIRC...
Paul

Post by John Youngblood
Has Clarence White been mentioned in this thread? In the early sixties
he was the major progenitor of crosspicking as far I can recall, with
brilliant usage thereof on tunes such as Beamont Rag, Listen to the
Mockingbird, 9 lb hammer, I am a Pilgrim. His syncopated style of 2
downs and one-up (or whatever...?) represented a quantum leap from any
who might have dabbled previously. I'm sure Doc, et al, would agree, he
had no peer in that technique. History shouldn't be allowed to wander
on this point...

Post by paul asbell

Post by Jerry Ranch
So, for example, Doc Watson would be crosspicking (on those pieces
he's not fingerpicking, of course)
Or are there different styles of flatpicking?
Jerry

I'm gonna take a whack at this...
Crosspicking is almost always done w/ a flatpick... but most flatpicking
has only small amounts of crosspicking in it.
Doc's flatpicked fiddle tunes (or Norman Blake, Bryan sutton, Tony Rice,
et al) and the backup parts to them, as well as the rhythm accompaniment
to vocal bluegrass songs, are what most folks call "flatpicking".
Occasionally, in some parts, the picker tosses in a section in which
three repeated notes, usually an arpeggio of the chord, are played
repetitively. The actual METER is 4/4, and these notes are all
eighth-notes, so the 1st note of each repeated three note pattern
doesn't rhythmically "fall" on consistent strong beats- it sets up a
syncopated rhythm. This is exactly what a Scruggs-style banjo player
does w/ his 3-finger rolls... listen to bluegrass banjo, and you'll hear
a lot of that technique.
Anyway- the flatpicker occasionally imitates the effect of the 3-finger
banjo roll w/ his flatpick in his soloing- that's crosspicking.
mandolinists like J. McReynolds do it, too, as already noted.....

[Inyo]

Subject: Re: Whats the diff between Carter style and crosspicking?
I love
Doc and worked on his leads note-for-note in the 60's too (no age
apologies here). The Circle be Unbroken album was in a different
(post-beatles!) era though, maybe 10 yrs. later.

I used to have an original copy of the first great LP of "Will The Circle Be
Unbroken" (eventually, weren't at least three volumes released?) that Doc
Watson cut with the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Roy Acuff and several other
luminaries, but I finally ran the needle through it. Doc's famous flat-picking
on "Way Downtown" is just about as good as it gets.

Folks, if you ever get the chance, pick up the LP or digitally remastered CD
that Doc and Chet Atkins collaborated on in 1980 ("REFLECTIONS" RCA AHL1-3701,
1980). Sure, there a couple of stinkers, but the instrumental numbers, in
particular, achieve stratospheric levels of virtuosity; and surprisingly, most
of the numbers on which Chet sings work well, too. Doc really forced Chet to
bear down with serious, inspired, focussed intensity on that LP, I
believe--that was some of Chet's best studio work ever.

"The Implosion"--An original acoustic, solo, instrumental 6-string guitar
composition by Inyo
http://members.aol.com/geowrs/theimplosion.html

[paul asbell]

Post by John Youngblood
Clarence stuff I heard was on reel-to-reel the 1964. An Ash Grove
performance that latter turned up in an album to my amazement. I love
Doc and worked on his leads note-for-note in the 60's too (no age
apologies here). The Circle be Unbroken album was in a different
(post-beatles!) era though, maybe 10 yrs. later. I don't think you've
heard the Clarence stuff I'm talking about...

The first time I heard Doc was before the 1st album, actually... when
Ralph Rinzler first brought him to NYC w/ Clarence Ashley (I ain't age
apologizing neither!... ;-) )

And, come to think of it, i think I know what recordings you're talking
about... but i forgot how early they apparently were.

I ALSO was given a cassette in around '78 of Clarenece, sitting on a
couch, practicing, running thru his versions of various fiddle tunes...
Soldier's Joy, Sally Goodin maybe, etc. Needless to say, it was a big
inspiration. Heard it?
--
Best regards

Paul


Paul Asbell
56 Pomeroy St
Burlington, VT 05401
802-862-7696
***@paulasbell.com
www.paulasbell.com

[Tom from Texas]

In Texas, crosspicking is using the left hand to pick yer right nostril and yer
right hand to scratch yer left testicle.

Tom from Texas

[p***@nospam.us]

Post by John Youngblood
Has Clarence White been mentioned in this thread? In the early sixties
he was the major progenitor of crosspicking as far I can recall, with
brilliant usage thereof on tunes such as Beamont Rag, Listen to the
Mockingbird, 9 lb hammer, I am a Pilgrim. His syncopated style of 2
downs and one-up (or whatever...?) represented a quantum leap from any
who might have dabbled previously. I'm sure Doc, et al, would agree, he
had no peer in that technique. History shouldn't be allowed to wander
on this point...
John Youngblood

George Shuffler. When he played with the Stanley Brothers.
Long before Clarence, not to take away from Clarence's many
important accomplishments. Clarence did stuff nobody ever did
before, but so did George.

Al Sato
--
Reply to al_guitar "at" clifftopmusic "dot" com

[John Albert]

RE the posting:
<< "Crosspicking is an approach that utilizes a flatpick on mandolin or
guitar.
With this approach, the flatpick plays a succession of notes without
repeating the same string twice. It can be compared to banjo playing in
that usually crosspicking involves rolls. For instance, on guitar you would
play a crosspicking forward roll by playing the "G" String followed by the
"B" and "E" Strings directly. Now, normally you would have a chord fretted
giving this pattern its own harmonious ring..>>

For the best example of what crosspicking is, look to the guy who
practically invented it on the guitar: George Shuffler, who played for many
years with the Stanley Brothers. Huss & Dalton has a dedicated (and very
beautiful) "George Shuffler" signature model on this page:
<http://www.hussanddalton.com/models.htm#Signature Models>
.... with a pic of George himself.

I'm sure "crosspicking" existed before George. But he refined it and
"re-defined" it into a specific style -- in much the same way as Earl
Scruggs re-defined the meaning of "3-finger" banjo playing.

Ralph Stanley has had a number of younger lead guitar players in his band
through the years who sought to emulate Shuffler's style. One of the best
was Ricky Lee, who can be heard on Ralph's seminal recordings made with Roy
Lee Centers from 1971 to 1973.

- John

[misifus]

Jerry Ranch wrote:


I've read a lot of good discussion of cross-picking, but not much
about the Carter style. The best would be to listen to Mother
Maybelle playing "Wildwood Flower". She played the melody with
her thumb (no pick) and would scratch her index finger across the
treble strings from time to time.

It's a much less "busy" sound than cross picking. Simpler and
more oldfashioned, too. I believe the Vol. I of Will The
Circle... has a Mother Maybelle cut or two on it. Of course
there are many of the old Carter family tunes available on CD.


-Raf

[Tivers]

Post by misifus
've read a lot of good discussion of cross-picking, but not much
about the Carter style. The best would be to listen to Mother
Maybelle playing "Wildwood Flower". She played the melody with
her thumb (no pick) and would
scratch her index finger across the
treble strings from time to time.

The Carter Family Lick is Thumb at the root, index up on the first, index down
across 1,2,3, index up on the first. Alternate the bass.

You can also pinch thumb and index when needed.
Tom Ivers
President: Equine Racing Systems, Inc.
http://www.equineracing.com
http://www.egroups.com/group/horsescience

[misifus]

Post by Tivers

Post by misifus
've read a lot of good discussion of cross-picking, but not much
about the Carter style. The best would be to listen to Mother
Maybelle playing "Wildwood Flower". She played the melody with
her thumb (no pick) and would
scratch her index finger across the
treble strings from time to time.

The Carter Family Lick is Thumb at the root, index up on the first, index down
across 1,2,3, index up on the first. Alternate the bass.

True, Tom, but if you listen, she didn't perform that
down-up-down with the index finger after every bass note. Often
if was once a measure. Other times, she would alternate
down-up-down with a straight down with the index finger.
Sometimes she neglected the index for more that one measure while
the thumb was doing something particularly interesting.

The thumb is doing the work of making the tune, literally picking
out the tune, carrying the melody. The index is providing the
rhythm.

-Raf