814ce---Fishman Prefix v. Expression System?

[Greg Estes]

Decisions, decisions... Choice between a 2002 "new" model with FP Blender
versus 2003 with E.S. Will have to pay $300 more for the guitar with
ES. Have read differing opinions on sound difference. Thoughts? GE

[Gary Hall]

Post by Greg Estes
Decisions, decisions... Choice between a 2002 "new" model with FP Blender
versus 2003 with E.S. Will have to pay $300 more for the guitar with
ES. Have read differing opinions on sound difference. Thoughts? GE

Greg,

I'd buy the 2002 Taylor and replace the Fishman Blender with the
soon-to-be released LR Baggs "imix" onboard blender system which
combines the I-Beam and the new Baggs Element Active UST. The onboard
controls fit right into the hole that the Prefix comes out of. The two
pickup signals can be blended to a mono signal at the output jack, or
one can switch into stereo mode and get separate signals at the tip
and ring contacts of the output jack.

I've been beta testing the "imix" in my Taylor 314ce, and I love it.
It's very natural sounding, articulate and dynamically responsive.

I should mention that this particular guitar is the "loaner" guitar
which I often loan to players at the open mikes which I host. In the
past three or four weeks, I've had plenty of opportunity to hear
others play the guitar, and to compare the guitar's amplified tone
with the tone of other guitar/pickup setups. The other UST-equipped
guitars have sounded thick and inarticulate in comparison. The
magnetic pickup-equipped guitars haven't even come close to the
sparkling high-end and overall pleasing tone of the "imix".

I've tried three ES-equipped Taylors in stores, and had one pretty
frustrating experience in running sound for an ES-equipped Taylor.
They were all too electric/magnetic sounding for my taste. The only
advantage that I can see to an ES-equipped guitar is that it would
likely be more feedback resistant - *if* its working properly. (Tom
Loredo has reported on encountering an ES-equipped Taylor with
significant feedback problems.)

My one caveat about the "imix" system is that the Element Active part
of the system should be installed by a professional. Some drilling
will need to be done, a new saddle may be required (the Element is
thinner than the Fishman pickup) and a professional should be able to
deal with any string volume balance issues that arise.

Well, you asked for "thoughts". Those are mine. Good luck with
whatever choice(s) you make.

Gary Hall

[G5832]

Hi Greg, I bought an 814ce a few years back with only the pickup, i.e., sans
the on-board blender. I plug into a Baggs Para Acoustic DI or a gig-pro. Works
fine. Blender technology is ever increasing, next year there will be a better
one (the guy at Taylor told me that). But the main reason I opted out of the
on-board blender was that I didn't want a big hole cut into the side of my
guitar.

Randy

[CBERTON1950]

Post by G5832
But the main reason I opted out of the
on-board blender was that I didn't want a big hole cut into the side of my
guitar.

Looks like I agree with most of you as well. I recently purchased a pristine
'96 514C - last year before the prefix barn door - and intend to install a good
up to date pickup system - . without the onboard electronics. I too feel that
on an instrument of this type the onboard system "violates" the instrument,
becomes obsolete and destroys the instruments overall visual beauty - even if
it still sound good acoustically like the Taylors do.

Having said that, I do think that onboard systems have their place. On an
instrument such as an Ovation, Tak, or one of the lower end Taylor or Martins
- primarily a gigging instrument used in a band or for open mikes where your
sound system varies, onboard controls can be useful, even desirable. However,
I find it difficult accept the building such a system into a premium
instrument like the 814C - looks like I'm not alone.

Chris

[Gary Hall]

Post by CBERTON1950

Post by G5832
But the main reason I opted out of the
on-board blender was that I didn't want a big hole cut into the side of my
guitar.

Looks like I agree with most of you as well. I recently purchased a pristine
'96 514C - last year before the prefix barn door - and intend to install a good
up to date pickup system - . without the onboard electronics. I too feel that
on an instrument of this type the onboard system "violates" the instrument,
becomes obsolete and destroys the instruments overall visual beauty - even if
it still sound good acoustically like the Taylors do.
Having said that, I do think that onboard systems have their place. On an
instrument such as an Ovation, Tak, or one of the lower end Taylor or Martins
- primarily a gigging instrument used in a band or for open mikes where your
sound system varies, onboard controls can be useful, even desirable. However,
I find it difficult accept the building such a system into a premium
instrument like the 814C - looks like I'm not alone.
Chris

I'm with you Chris. I've already got the '96 Taylor 514C (no barndoor)
with the PUTW Stealth UST and PUTW Stealth preamp in it. I also have a
couple of other higher-end guitars with no barndoor thing. One has the
new Baggs Element Active UST in it and another will soon have the new
PUTW/LACE NT system in it. I DO enjoy the fact that its no problem to
upgrade the pickups in these guitars. I already HAVE, in fact,
upgraded the pickup systems in all of them.

On the other hand, I have several guitars with the "barndoor thing"
that have ALSO been upgraded. The Martin OMC-15E has a Stealth UST in
it which works very well with the onboard Fishman preamp and one piece
of outboard gear (the Aphex Acoustic Xciter). My cheap little Yamaha
APX4A works extremely well with the retrofitted Baggs LB6 and two very
useful pieces of outboard gear (the Aphex Acoustic Xciter and the
Raven Labs True Blue EQ). The Taylor 314ce has been retrofitted with
the new Baggs Element Active/I-Beam/onboard blender system, which
happens to be the all-around best pickup system (for my taste) that
I've yet tried. I usually use this Taylor 314ce with the True Blue EQ,
but the pickup sounds good enough on its own (without any outboard EQ
help) that the guitar is ideal for open mikes and such.

Interestingly, I bought the Taylor314ce (used, at GC) DESPITE the fact
that I already knew, going in, that I dislike the Fishman electronics.
I bought it because the tone and playability were excellent, and it
was a bargain for the price. This brings me (finally) to my main
point. If Greg happens to find an 814ce out there with exceptional
tone and playability, and if the price is right, why shouldn't he buy
it, esthetics be damned. The chances are good that it will be a better
guitar than a special order 814C would be.

I suppose its a matter of personal values, but I'd rather pay less
money for a better sounding/playing guitar than pay more for a
"perfect" looking guitar. How easy it will be to upgrade the pickup is
definitely an issue to be considered, but its not the only issue.

Gary Hall

[Matt Hayden]

Post by Gary Hall
On the other hand, I have several guitars with the "barndoor thing"
that have ALSO been upgraded. The Martin OMC-15E has a Stealth UST in
it which works very well with the onboard Fishman preamp and one piece
of outboard gear (the Aphex Acoustic Xciter).

Hiya Gary,

Can you shed some more light on this, please? I've got an OMC-15E and
am planning to do the same thing. Any advice is MUCH appreciated, as
the wiring on the Fishman looks a little delicate...

thanks

mh

[David Enke]

Post by Matt Hayden

Post by Gary Hall
On the other hand, I have several guitars with the "barndoor thing"
that have ALSO been upgraded. The Martin OMC-15E has a Stealth UST in
it which works very well with the onboard Fishman preamp and one piece
of outboard gear (the Aphex Acoustic Xciter).

Hiya Gary,
Can you shed some more light on this, please? I've got an OMC-15E and
am planning to do the same thing. Any advice is MUCH appreciated, as
the wiring on the Fishman looks a little delicate...
thanks
mh

Hi Matt,
the trick is to separate the braid on the coax wire by 1/2", then twist &
solder tin the braid and 1/8" of exposed center conductor. Follow the
Fishman wire into the pre-amp (a few screws here & there), and match the
insert points. The wires are clamped into the pre-amp with a terminal block
that uses a small straight screwdriver.

David Enke

[Gary Hall]

Post by Matt Hayden

Post by Gary Hall
On the other hand, I have several guitars with the "barndoor thing"
that have ALSO been upgraded. The Martin OMC-15E has a Stealth UST in
it which works very well with the onboard Fishman preamp and one piece
of outboard gear (the Aphex Acoustic Xciter).

Hiya Gary,
Can you shed some more light on this, please? I've got an OMC-15E and
am planning to do the same thing. Any advice is MUCH appreciated, as
the wiring on the Fishman looks a little delicate...
thanks
mh

Hi Matt,

I've been told that the newer Prefixs have a jack that accepts a
mini-plug from the pickup. If your guitar has the older style Prefix+,
I'm afraid its a tricky connection. My guitar tech did the job for me,
and I recall him complaining about how difficult it was. (With his
usual colorful way of putting things, he said it was like "trying to
jerk-off a mouse".)

If you don't happen to have a tech that you can trust with the tricky
stuff, I'm sure that David Enke would be glad to advise you. I recall
that David helped Chris (CDT-shag on the AG forums) to make the
connection to the Prefix in his Taylor 314ce. Chris ended up having to
send the guitar to David, but it turned out that Chris had made a good
connection. The pickup was defective.

There's one more thing that I should mention. If you're really fussy
about noise, be aware that the Prefix+ has a SNR of 77, as opposed to
the PADI's SNR of 88, or the Platinum's SNR of 90. I've also found
that the Prefix+ is noticeably noisier than the PUTW onboard preamp in
my Stealth-equipped Taylor 514C.

I hasten to add that the Prefix's relative noisiness hasn't been an
issue for me. I wasn't even aware that it WAS relatively noisy until I
started investigating the noise problems that Chris was having with
using his Prefix/Stealth setup with the (noisier still) Aphex Acoustic
Xciter (SNR of 70db). (I don't mean to put down the Xciter. With a
relatively hot, clean input signal, the Xciter's noisiness isn't
noticeable. The Stealth/Prefix output is relatively weak and a bit
noisy, however. It can present a bit of a problem for someone who's
very fussy about noise.)

I hope that helps.
Gary Hall

[Bill Benzel]

David D. Berkowitz (***@berkowitzguitars.com) wrote:
: Tom, the problem is that it is an upcharge at Taylor to order a guitar
: without the pickup. I hate systems that mount in the side of the guitar,
: that violate the guitar. The guitar will last, the system will not and will
: be surpassed by more refined technology that hopefully will be a transparent
: installation. What you end up with is a hole in your guitar for electronics
: that are broken or outdated. I've actually told clients that wanted side
: mounted electronics that I won't do it. They can buy the system and have
: someone else install it but I won't. I just can't abide by them.
:

I agree wholeheartedly. A few years ago I bought a Taylor 714-CE LTD. It
has the Fishman blender in the side. It's a very nice guitar, very
playable and the electronics work nicely.

This instrument has cocobolo back and sides and there is a ring of sapwood
around the sides where they join the top. When I look at it these dayse I
wonder how anyone who saw that wood could have sawn the barn door in the
side. It's always painful when I notice it, though it doesn't stop me
from playing it. The instrument would be drop-dead gorgeous without the
blender hacked into the side. I will eventually sell it because of the
pain I now feel about it.

Of course, nobody did saw that rectangle in the side. A machine did
the dirty work -- a machine that was incapable of seeing the beauty of
the wood and saying, "Hey, wait! Maybe we should build this one
without the blender!"

Last Friday, Vicki and I did the Taylor tour in the wake of the (non)
Healdsburg experience. It's impressive, if you're into checking out mass
production techniques, just as the Sierra Nevada brewery tour was
impressive. Taylor and Sierra Nevada are peas in a pod --
entrepeneurially driven companies that have learned how to use machines
with human QA in the line at every critical point. They're also very much
oriented toward customer satisfaction (my Taylors are both in their shop
getting tweaked -- free -- no questions asked).

Taylor makes good guitars and SN makes good beer (both are in the 6.5 to 7
area of a 10 scale, IMO) but I realize, in a post (non) Healdsburg state
of mind that both both lack something -- the closest single word I can
come up with is "soul." Soul of the luthier, soul of the homebrewer --
one and the same.

That said, I've had the opportunity to A/B my Fishman equipped 714-CE
against an ES equipped 714C through an Acoustic Image amp and I have to
say I prefer the Fishman. It's probably just that over a two year period
I've learned to tweak it and I've learned to approach playing mine in a
way that makes the Fishman sound good. Given time with the ES I could
probably adapt and get "my sound" out of it. In the end, though, I find
nothing to rave about from my ES playing experiences (early ones at Winter
NAMM as well as several production models since then).

If I absolutely HAD to choose one or the other today I'd take the ES
simple because it preserves more wood. I'd know I can eventually drive
the sound I want out of it and, if there are problems with it mechanically
or electronically, I'd know that Taylor will stanhd behind the product and
make it fully functional.

I will never buy another guitar with a "barn door" in the side!

[Tom Loredo]

Post by Bill Benzel
That said, I've had the opportunity to A/B my Fishman equipped 714-CE
against an ES equipped 714C through an Acoustic Image amp and I have to
say I prefer the Fishman. It's probably just that over a two year period
I've learned to tweak it and I've learned to approach playing mine in a
way that makes the Fishman sound good.

FWIW, Teja Gerken voiced a similar opinion in his *AG* review of the ES,
if I recall correctly. He preferred the ES through Taylor's high quality
PA system, but this preference didn't extend to recording or to playing
through an acoustic amp. In the amp case, he preferred the older system.

Peace,
Tom

[David D. Berkowitz]

Mitch,

It's possible that Taylor has changed its policy; however, for years if
you wanted to order a cutaway without the electronics it was an upcharge.
Similarly, and for example, my friend wanted to order an 815 to replace one
that was stolen. Taylor no longer offered the 815, only the 815CE. It was
an upcharge to get a noncutaway, non-electronic, 815.

Confirm it with a dealer. I haven't asked about that stuff in a while,
so perhaps Taylor has acquiesced in this regard.

--db

Post by Bill Benzel
Tom, the problem is that it is an upcharge at Taylor to order a guitar
without the pickup

Is this a recent change David? When I special order my guitar, they were

going

to deduct about $180 ($240 at list) to get it without the pickup.
Mitch

[JD]

It must have changed; they knocked off almost $200 on a 414C without the
electronics when I ordered from Buff Bros.

JD

Post by David D. Berkowitz
Mitch,
It's possible that Taylor has changed its policy; however, for
years if you wanted to order a cutaway without the electronics it was
an upcharge. Similarly, and for example, my friend wanted to order an
815 to replace one that was stolen. Taylor no longer offered the
815, only the 815CE. It was an upcharge to get a noncutaway,
non-electronic, 815.
Confirm it with a dealer. I haven't asked about that stuff in a
while, so perhaps Taylor has acquiesced in this regard.
--db

Post by Bill Benzel
Tom, the problem is that it is an upcharge at Taylor to order a
guitar without the pickup

Is this a recent change David? When I special order my guitar, they
were going to deduct about $180 ($240 at list) to get it without the
pickup.
Mitch

[David D. Berkowitz]

McDonald, this was before Taylor was only offering cutaways WITH the
electronics.

Post by David D. Berkowitz
It's possible that Taylor has changed its policy; however, for years if
you wanted to order a cutaway without the electronics it was an upcharge.

This is incorrect. I have Taylor price sheets dating back to 1996, and the
prices are listed for the basic guitar. Electronics and cutaway are each
separate upgrades with prices listed on the back of the sheet. Perhaps the
situation has changed, but for years a Taylor without electronics had a

lower

list price than a Taylor with electronics. When I ordered an 814C in 1997

I

had to add the price of the cutaway to the price of the basic 814 model

but I

saved money by not ordering the electronics.
mcd
--
The theory of predestination was doomed from the start.

[David D. Berkowitz]

I meant to add that if you look at the later price sheets they don't list
anything but cutaways with electronics, the designation CE, as in 514CE as
opposed to 514C. --db

Post by David D. Berkowitz
McDonald, this was before Taylor was only offering cutaways WITH the
electronics.

Post by David D. Berkowitz
It's possible that Taylor has changed its policy; however, for

years

Post by David D. Berkowitz
if

Post by David D. Berkowitz
you wanted to order a cutaway without the electronics it was an

upcharge.

This is incorrect. I have Taylor price sheets dating back to 1996, and the
prices are listed for the basic guitar. Electronics and cutaway are each
separate upgrades with prices listed on the back of the sheet. Perhaps the
situation has changed, but for years a Taylor without electronics had a

lower

list price than a Taylor with electronics. When I ordered an 814C in 1997

I

had to add the price of the cutaway to the price of the basic 814 model

but I

saved money by not ordering the electronics.
mcd
--
The theory of predestination was doomed from the start.

[mcdonald]

Post by David D. Berkowitz
I meant to add that if you look at the later price sheets they don't list
anything but cutaways with electronics, the designation CE, as in 514CE as
opposed to 514C. --db

In your previous post you said "for years if you wanted to order a cutaway
without the electronics it was an upcharge." That made it sound to me as
though you were saying this was Taylor's old policy, but in fact Taylor's old
policy (at least through 1999 and perhaps more recently) was that the models
without both cutaway and electronics were the standard, and the cutaway and
electronics were independent upcharges. Perhaps if you had said "in recent
years" they made it an upcharge to order the cutaway without the electronics
it would have been clearer.


mcd