Discussion:
Reso Rants
(too old to reply)
don hindenach
2015-03-15 05:27:49 UTC
Permalink
A few years back I got a jones to try a reso, so I picked up a Republic Parlour wood-body and fiddled it into reasonable shape. It was fun. So when I had a few extra bucks I took a chance on a budding builder in Michigan and got a mild-steel bisquit-bridge reso from him. It's pretty cool. Has it's own sound and it is a Good One. Again, I had to Do Things to get it into useable shape but it was well worth it.

Along the way a buddy and I tried putting the K&K reso pickup in his steel National and my wood cheapo. ew. Their idea of a good time is to epoxy and washer to a piezo pickup ring and screw the assembly down to the top of the bridge-plate. The sound is tinny and weak and ratty. So if you crank the gain and EQ all the treble out that you can it's "good enough". I guess. I've looked around, and it seems that some variation of this is what they all do unless they put a tele pickup in the cover plate.

My daughter Chelsea plays the appalachian lap dulcimer. She has a wonderful instrument built by Jerry Rockwell. These are generally pretty quiet instruments. So I went looking and looking and looking, and found a guy named Mike Clemmer who builds a dobro-based lap dulcimer. Actually orders dobro cones and bridges from the company and builds the thing around them. It's glorious, and his price is Very Reasonable. We all chipped in and got her one for this last christmas and she's thrilled. When we played just after she got it, she could put the sound right in there w/o having to plug in just to get close to an unplugged guitar.

We were playing about with string gauges to develope a set for her new tool, and I got really tired of futzing with the cheap tailpiece and the way the strings were strung. So I went looking for a string-thru tailpiece and found this: http://www.allenguitar.com/tpcs_rs-2.htm A solid-brass tailpiece. Hmmm. Things were going well with the business, so I ordered three of them. I am sooo glad I did, 'cause I would have had to order more instantly after installing the first one. Turned my cheapo cardboard Republic into sounding almost like there's some solid wood in there. Turned the mild-steel reso into a Whole New Instrument - louder, more resonant, livelier, and prettier. And Chelsea's new reso dulcimer got at least twice as loud and twice as lively. Great fun!

Chelsea and I have been trying to get away for a music weekend once a year, and this year we are trying a weekend at my house and calling it Music Therapy Weekend. This got me thinking about pickups again, as Saturday evening might get a bit loud :-)

Seems most everyone out there is putting a passive reso pickup right on the bisquit itself or trapped under the screw that holds the cone to the bridge assembly. Those are all going to have the same effect we got when we put those pickups on ours - ratty, thin, and tinny and turn the treble down and it's "good enough, I guess".

The only other variations I have yet seen are either tele pickups in the coverplate or what the guy did that made the dobro-based dulcimer we all gave Chelsea for christmas.

He took a cheap single piezo element and hot-glued it right to the cone. He calls it "buffering the pickup", and it does just what you'd think - it's really weak and really dull. Just the opposite tonally of what we got with the K&K. The hot glue drags all the life right out of it.

Sheesh.

So I got thinking, of course, and decided that having just an element on the bridge or cone will be just too much treble. But adding a body element not only helps a bit by adding a second sensor spot that hopefully balances the tone, but the sensors also load each other a bit and something in my intuition decided that is necessary.

Here is what I tried:

First thing is I peeled the hot glue and cheap pickup off the dobro cone (that scared me, but it needed done) and tossed it. Then Chelsea and I got to poking around the instrument with a pencil jammed up to our ear and the eraser end touching various parts of the cone and body. Discovered the liveliest part of the cone and the only place on the body we could stick the other element. I then took a dual-large-element K&K Big Twin I had laying around and super-glued one to the cone and the other to the body spot.

Hot DAMN! Fucking lovely. The only downside is when it's turned up really far you get a body-clunk. Chelsea hates that part, but I figure if she's turned up that far she's in a prety loud situation and we all just enjoy the added percussion and keep jamming.

So tonight I tried the same trick on both my reso instruments.

On the wood one I pulled the pickup off the bridgeplate and stuck it to the body and added a large-sized single additional pickup glued to the cone up pretty close to the bridge as things were livelier there than elswhere on the cone. All echoey and fun. Plugged in, it now needs zero EQ and it's easy to get lost in.

With the steel one I started from scratch. With the cone one I put it same place roughly as with the wood instrument, but I put the body element right on the inside of the back near the middle. Again, I played about and that was the liveliest spot I could reach without splicing wire on the pickup lead. Holy Shit it's fun. Talk about getting lost in the sound . . . . . it just echoes forever.

Here is the down side: since I chose in all cases for the liveliest spots, I am getting a lot of body noise when I move around. And I get a lot of guitar thru the pickup - nothing 'pure' about the sound. It's raw and wonderful and detailed and no fucking EQ, but there exists an extraneous element. (I've been the only one heard it besides my wife Pat so far, and she's all "yup, that sounds like you playing a guitar". So I have no idea how much sidenoise is really getting out there.)

So if you want to try my idea (I'm claiming it as original, as when I even try to talk about it with the pros out there I get yelled down before I can even get 1/4-way thru the concept - they got it all figured out, y'see) you will definitely want to listen and go thru the process and make your own guesses on what you'll be enjoying.

The only thing I can promise is that the two-element system I just did three installs of has lots and lots of sound and ain't tinny, ratty, or dull :-)

There ya go. The reso tweak of the week is the Allen RS-2 and K&K Big Twin with the donh placement option. Fun forever!
--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com
Tony Done
2015-03-17 21:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by don hindenach
A few years back I got a jones to try a reso, so I picked up a
Republic Parlour wood-body and fiddled it into reasonable shape. It
was fun. So when I had a few extra bucks I took a chance on a
budding builder in Michigan and got a mild-steel bisquit-bridge reso
from him. It's pretty cool. Has it's own sound and it is a Good
One. Again, I had to Do Things to get it into useable shape but it
was well worth it.
Along the way a buddy and I tried putting the K&K reso pickup in his
steel National and my wood cheapo. ew. Their idea of a good time is
to epoxy and washer to a piezo pickup ring and screw the assembly
down to the top of the bridge-plate. The sound is tinny and weak and
ratty. So if you crank the gain and EQ all the treble out that you
can it's "good enough". I guess. I've looked around, and it seems
that some variation of this is what they all do unless they put a
tele pickup in the cover plate.
My daughter Chelsea plays the appalachian lap dulcimer. She has a
wonderful instrument built by Jerry Rockwell. These are generally
pretty quiet instruments. So I went looking and looking and looking,
and found a guy named Mike Clemmer who builds a dobro-based lap
dulcimer. Actually orders dobro cones and bridges from the company
and builds the thing around them. It's glorious, and his price is
Very Reasonable. We all chipped in and got her one for this last
christmas and she's thrilled. When we played just after she got it,
she could put the sound right in there w/o having to plug in just to
get close to an unplugged guitar.
We were playing about with string gauges to develope a set for her
new tool, and I got really tired of futzing with the cheap tailpiece
and the way the strings were strung. So I went looking for a
http://www.allenguitar.com/tpcs_rs-2.htm A solid-brass tailpiece.
Hmmm. Things were going well with the business, so I ordered three
of them. I am sooo glad I did, 'cause I would have had to order more
instantly after installing the first one. Turned my cheapo cardboard
Republic into sounding almost like there's some solid wood in there.
Turned the mild-steel reso into a Whole New Instrument - louder, more
resonant, livelier, and prettier. And Chelsea's new reso dulcimer
got at least twice as loud and twice as lively. Great fun!
Chelsea and I have been trying to get away for a music weekend once a
year, and this year we are trying a weekend at my house and calling
it Music Therapy Weekend. This got me thinking about pickups again,
as Saturday evening might get a bit loud :-)
Seems most everyone out there is putting a passive reso pickup right
on the bisquit itself or trapped under the screw that holds the cone
to the bridge assembly. Those are all going to have the same effect
we got when we put those pickups on ours - ratty, thin, and tinny and
turn the treble down and it's "good enough, I guess".
The only other variations I have yet seen are either tele pickups in
the coverplate or what the guy did that made the dobro-based dulcimer
we all gave Chelsea for christmas.
He took a cheap single piezo element and hot-glued it right to the
cone. He calls it "buffering the pickup", and it does just what
you'd think - it's really weak and really dull. Just the opposite
tonally of what we got with the K&K. The hot glue drags all the life
right out of it.
Sheesh.
So I got thinking, of course, and decided that having just an element
on the bridge or cone will be just too much treble. But adding a
body element not only helps a bit by adding a second sensor spot that
hopefully balances the tone, but the sensors also load each other a
bit and something in my intuition decided that is necessary.
First thing is I peeled the hot glue and cheap pickup off the dobro
cone (that scared me, but it needed done) and tossed it. Then
Chelsea and I got to poking around the instrument with a pencil
jammed up to our ear and the eraser end touching various parts of the
cone and body. Discovered the liveliest part of the cone and the
only place on the body we could stick the other element. I then took
a dual-large-element K&K Big Twin I had laying around and super-glued
one to the cone and the other to the body spot.
Hot DAMN! Fucking lovely. The only downside is when it's turned up
really far you get a body-clunk. Chelsea hates that part, but I
figure if she's turned up that far she's in a prety loud situation
and we all just enjoy the added percussion and keep jamming.
So tonight I tried the same trick on both my reso instruments.
On the wood one I pulled the pickup off the bridgeplate and stuck it
to the body and added a large-sized single additional pickup glued to
the cone up pretty close to the bridge as things were livelier there
than elswhere on the cone. All echoey and fun. Plugged in, it now
needs zero EQ and it's easy to get lost in.
With the steel one I started from scratch. With the cone one I put
it same place roughly as with the wood instrument, but I put the body
element right on the inside of the back near the middle. Again, I
played about and that was the liveliest spot I could reach without
splicing wire on the pickup lead. Holy Shit it's fun. Talk about
getting lost in the sound . . . . . it just echoes forever.
Here is the down side: since I chose in all cases for the liveliest
spots, I am getting a lot of body noise when I move around. And I
get a lot of guitar thru the pickup - nothing 'pure' about the sound.
It's raw and wonderful and detailed and no fucking EQ, but there
exists an extraneous element. (I've been the only one heard it
besides my wife Pat so far, and she's all "yup, that sounds like you
playing a guitar". So I have no idea how much sidenoise is really
getting out there.)
So if you want to try my idea (I'm claiming it as original, as when I
even try to talk about it with the pros out there I get yelled down
before I can even get 1/4-way thru the concept - they got it all
figured out, y'see) you will definitely want to listen and go thru
the process and make your own guesses on what you'll be enjoying.
The only thing I can promise is that the two-element system I just
did three installs of has lots and lots of sound and ain't tinny,
ratty, or dull :-)
There ya go. The reso tweak of the week is the Allen RS-2 and K&K
Big Twin with the donh placement option. Fun forever!
I was having trouble with my declining attention span in that lot. :)

I have a Republican Miniolian whose sound I like a lot, but the very
cheap soundwell delaminated after a few months, but luckily I caught it
before it had completely fallen apart. A dozen tubes of superglue fixed
it, no problem. I've also tried it with nylon strings, pretty good,
punchy and somewhat flamenco-like, but you have to increase the saddle
break angle

I gave up on piezos many years ago, IMO they don't sound good in resos.
I use magnetics in two systems:

1) Cut a hole in the coverplate to accommodate one, and also install
passive controls on the coverplate.

2) put the magnetic *under* the (brass) coverplate, and RE buttons on
top to act as a magnetic bridge to the strings. This works really well,
and you can hear the acoustic quality. "Hard time playing this" in the
Soundclick link in my sig was recorded with this, through a Fender Blues
Deluxe, miced and IIRC also DIed to the desk.

I'll check out the tailpiece.
--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
hank alrich
2015-03-23 17:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Done
I gave up on piezos many years ago, IMO they don't sound good in resos.
Depends on the piezo, regardless of instrument, IME, and depends even
more on the preamp the pickup is feeding.
--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic
Tony Done
2015-03-23 19:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by hank alrich
Post by Tony Done
I gave up on piezos many years ago, IMO they don't sound good in resos.
Depends on the piezo, regardless of instrument, IME, and depends even
more on the preamp the pickup is feeding.
I've no doubt that both piezos and preamps have improved since last I
used them, but I got tired of trying. The problem, with all those I
tried, was too much quack. - It got too banjo-like. I was using the
locally made mixer/preamp that Gary Brown was fitting in his "Resonance"
guitars with a magnetic/piezo blend. The advantage I saw in magnetics
was that their location tends to pick up harmonics that sound good with
slide.
--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
Tony Done
2015-03-23 20:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Done
Post by hank alrich
Post by Tony Done
I gave up on piezos many years ago, IMO they don't sound good in resos.
Depends on the piezo, regardless of instrument, IME, and depends even
more on the preamp the pickup is feeding.
I've no doubt that both piezos and preamps have improved since last I
used them, but I got tired of trying. The problem, with all those I
tried, was too much quack. - It got too banjo-like. I was using the
locally made mixer/preamp that Gary Brown was fitting in his "Resonance"
guitars with a magnetic/piezo blend. The advantage I saw in magnetics
was that their location tends to pick up harmonics that sound good with
slide.
I'll just note that I also like magnetics in flattops. I recently
installed a magnetic/piezo blender system in a Maton equipped with an
AP5 preamp, and took it down to my mate's music store for the guys to
try out. The blend was good, but magnetic got the unanimous vote on its
own. - It depends what kindof sound you ae looking for.
--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
Les Cargill
2015-03-24 03:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Done
Post by hank alrich
Post by Tony Done
I gave up on piezos many years ago, IMO they don't sound good in resos.
Depends on the piezo, regardless of instrument, IME, and depends even
more on the preamp the pickup is feeding.
I've no doubt that both piezos and preamps have improved since last I
used them, but I got tired of trying. The problem, with all those I
tried, was too much quack. - It got too banjo-like. I was using the
locally made mixer/preamp that Gary Brown was fitting in his "Resonance"
guitars with a magnetic/piezo blend. The advantage I saw in magnetics
was that their location tends to pick up harmonics that sound good with
slide.
These don't quack as much:

http://kksound.com/instruments/acousticguitar.php
--
Les Cargill
hank alrich
2015-03-24 05:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Tony Done
Post by hank alrich
Post by Tony Done
I gave up on piezos many years ago, IMO they don't sound good in resos.
Depends on the piezo, regardless of instrument, IME, and depends even
more on the preamp the pickup is feeding.
I've no doubt that both piezos and preamps have improved since last I
used them, but I got tired of trying. The problem, with all those I
tried, was too much quack. - It got too banjo-like. I was using the
locally made mixer/preamp that Gary Brown was fitting in his "Resonance"
guitars with a magnetic/piezo blend. The advantage I saw in magnetics
was that their location tends to pick up harmonics that sound good with
slide.
http://kksound.com/instruments/acousticguitar.php
True, and when connected to one of these, it's a whole new ballgame.

http://www.fire-eye.com/

(Tony, Mike Brown has a Red-Eye.)
--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic
Tony Done
2015-03-24 18:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by hank alrich
Post by Les Cargill
Post by Tony Done
Post by hank alrich
Post by Tony Done
I gave up on piezos many years ago, IMO they don't sound good in resos.
Depends on the piezo, regardless of instrument, IME, and depends even
more on the preamp the pickup is feeding.
I've no doubt that both piezos and preamps have improved since last I
used them, but I got tired of trying. The problem, with all those I
tried, was too much quack. - It got too banjo-like. I was using the
locally made mixer/preamp that Gary Brown was fitting in his "Resonance"
guitars with a magnetic/piezo blend. The advantage I saw in magnetics
was that their location tends to pick up harmonics that sound good with
slide.
http://kksound.com/instruments/acousticguitar.php
True, and when connected to one of these, it's a whole new ballgame.
http://www.fire-eye.com/
(Tony, Mike Brown has a Red-Eye.)
I always give RedEye and K&K an honourable mention when the topic of
piezos and preamps comes up in the fora, and they would be the ones I
would try if I was ever in the market. But I do like the sound of
magnetics. :)
--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
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