12 String Guitar Recommendations

[Self]

I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.

1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.

2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.

3) Here are the guitars I looked at:

a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.

Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?


-s

[Ken Cashion]

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.

And you do not want to tune them flat and use a capo?

Post by Self
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.

Look for a 60s Framus. Mine has always been tuned to
pitch...the 440 one.

Post by Self
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?

If I had a choice between a pegged 12-string and one with a
tailpiece, I would go with the tailpiece.

Ken

[JD]

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am
in the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?

A few rules to remember;
12 strings are best served up on a jumbo body....
Martin just doesn't "get" 12 strings.....

That leaves you with a Taylor 355. The 455 and the 555 are pretty righteous
too. We won't even bother with Takamine.

JD

[Greg Cisko]

Post by JD
That leaves you with a Taylor 355. The 455 and the 555 are pretty
righteous too. We won't even bother with Takamine.

How about a seagull 12 string? He just looked at the those he listed, but
didn't say he was limited to that list. I've tried a few seagulls and they
seemed pretty good. Especially for the $450 price!

[MikeK]

Post by JD

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I
am in the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really
be tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?

A few rules to remember;
12 strings are best served up on a jumbo body....
Martin just doesn't "get" 12 strings.....
That leaves you with a Taylor 355. The 455 and the 555 are pretty
righteous too. We won't even bother with Takamine.
JD

I like my Takamine. It's not the 335 (least I don't think so), but I can
tune it to pitch with light strings. And the price was in my budget
(always a consideration). Let's just say it's a bang for buck guitar.<g>

[JD]

Post by MikeK

Post by JD

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I
am in the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really
be tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?

A few rules to remember;
12 strings are best served up on a jumbo body....
Martin just doesn't "get" 12 strings.....
That leaves you with a Taylor 355. The 455 and the 555 are pretty
righteous too. We won't even bother with Takamine.
JD

I like my Takamine. It's not the 335 (least I don't think so), but I can
tune it to pitch with light strings. And the price was in my budget
(always a consideration). Let's just say it's a bang for buck guitar.<g>

And in all fairness, they don't suck anywhere nearly as bad as they once
did.

JD

[JLarsson]

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.

Some can't - some can. Friend of mine has a Samick that sounds
surprisingly good, and is tuned to A440 w/lights.

Post by Self
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?

Two - On a particular day in our local guitar shop, comparing the
Taylor 355, 555, and (I think) 855, the 355 was the surprising winner
for me. That particular guitar had what I wanted in sound more than
the other two.

The second suggestion is a Rainsong WS-3000. Definitely try before you
buy as they are not everyone's cup of tea. I like mine.

JLarsson

[don hindenach]

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?

I once played a Tacoma 12 that was far nicer sounding than the Taylor on
the wall next to it.

And there are some makers that build 12s on an OM size body - you may
wish to check that out as well.

[Dan Carey]

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?
-s

I'd vote for the Taylor 355. I had a 455 and after I bought it I played a
355. I was sorry I didn't buy the 355. It had a more balanced sound across
the board. I've never found a Martin 12 string that I liked.
Can't comment on a Tak, never played one.
But, if you can, go play a Guild before you make a final decision.

Geezer

[David Morton]

Post by Self
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.

I went for c), specifically the 'L7' version of c) meaning it has Koa
back & sides. It sounded and suited me better than the (slightly larger)
Taylor x55 I compared it to.

[Mike brown]

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?
-s

Washburn D10s-12.

Solid top, laminated b&s.

Cheap but pertty decent.

Of course if you really want a GOOD 12, look for a second hand Guild Jumbo 12.
One of our Guild experts can tell you the models to look for.

MJRB

[Folkie]

You have some good responses already. I definitely would go with a
Taylor 355, because you can't beat it for value. The 354-CE is nice,
but with a 12 string I want a big body. Martin has never been known
for 12 strings, and the imports are not in the same league. The 355 is
extremely playable, has an excellent overall balance and is a real
bargain.

I have a Taylor 355-K. When I bought it I played 355's that were super.
Also played a very nice 555. The higher end Taylors may be nicer
looking and have a slight tonal improvement, but the difference in
price is not justified, since the 355 is so damned good.

An old Guild 12 string (212XL or 312XL) is an option too if you know
what to look for and can find a good one. They were boomers, and the
cream of the crop in 12 strings in the 70's. The difference between
the Guild and the Taylor is the Taylor is more playable especially
above the 5th fret. The jumbo Guilds were more boomers. My preference
is the Taylor.

Larry

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?
-s

[David Morton]

Post by Folkie
I definitely would go with a
Taylor 355, because you can't beat it for value. The 354-CE is nice,
but with a 12 string I want a big body.

The 354 is still pretty damned big. The difference is an inch in body
length (20" vs 21") and an inch across the lower bout (16" vs 17").
They're the same depth (4&5/8").

[Mike brown]

Post by Folkie
The difference between
the Guild and the Taylor is the Taylor is more playable especially
above the 5th fret.

12 strings only have 5 frets.

Don't they ?

Well they should.

MJRB

[Misifus]

Post by Mike brown

Post by Folkie
The difference between
the Guild and the Taylor is the Taylor is more playable especially
above the 5th fret.

12 strings only have 5 frets.
Don't they ?
Well they should.
MJRB

Dick Rosmini, Leo Kottke?

-Raf

[Mike brown]

Post by Misifus

Post by Mike brown

Post by Folkie
The difference between
the Guild and the Taylor is the Taylor is more playable especially
above the 5th fret.

12 strings only have 5 frets.
Don't they ?
Well they should.
MJRB

Dick Rosmini, Leo Kottke?
-Raf

There's always an exception to every rule.

Dick who ?

Leo who ?

#8^)

MJRB

[Bill Benzel]

Mike brown (***@senet.com.au) wrote:
: > The difference between
: > the Guild and the Taylor is the Taylor is more playable especially
: > above the 5th fret.
:
:
: 12 strings only have 5 frets.
:
: Don't they ?
:
: Well they should.
:
: MJRB

We had a thread going a while back about first concerts -- mine was Pete
Seeger, Town Hall, Philadelphia, back in '59-'60.

He played a Martin(?) 12 string and I was really impressed by the
overtones and complexity of sound in that guitar. He could really make it
ring and he made it a point to talk about how he was going to use
harmonics in The Bells Of Rhymney. He worked his way up the neck with
diminished chords up to the join.

Next player I was really impressed with who had a Martin (definitely) 12
string was a guy named Peter Silitch from Annapolis, MD. He played a lot
of blues and ragtime stuff -- complex American primitive accompaniment to
folk songs. He worked the entire neck as well.

The guitars both sounded great, though they were very different --
Seeger's guitar was very bright, just rich with overtones, Silitch's was
more boxy with that Leadbelly kind of sound. I was, of course, fully
unaware of tonewoods, string gauges, etc. so I can only guess that Seeger,
as a paid performer, was changing strings frequently whereas Silitch, a
starving college student, was not.

[AG]

Post by Mike brown

Post by Folkie
The difference between
the Guild and the Taylor is the Taylor is more playable especially
above the 5th fret.

12 strings only have 5 frets.
Don't they ?
Well they should.
MJRB

Actually I need more than that because I usually tune down cause it hurts
my hands too much to play at pitch and so I use a capo to play at pitch. I
sometimes get down as low as the 8th fret, but not often.

AG

[dick thaxter]

Eight messages in a thread on 12-strings and no one's mentioned Guild?

Find a used Guild for $1200 and don't worry about tuning it up to
pitch.

dick thaxter

[Greg Cisko]

Post by dick thaxter
Eight messages in a thread on 12-strings and no one's mentioned Guild?
Find a used Guild for $1200 and don't worry about tuning it up to
pitch.

Why not? What if you are jamming with others? I would never
consider any guitar that couldn't be tuned. to 440.

[Bob Dorgan]

Post by Greg Cisko

Post by dick thaxter
Eight messages in a thread on 12-strings and no one's mentioned Guild?
Find a used Guild for $1200 and don't worry about tuning it up to
pitch.

Why not? What if you are jamming with others? I would never
consider any guitar that couldn't be tuned. to 440.
--

You misunderstood Dick.
He meant that you could tune it to concert without worry.
That being said, I prefer the sound of a 12 string tuned down.
I very rarely tune mine to concert pitch and usually I have it tuned down 2
full steps..(C-C).
Growls like dog at that pitch...
Dorgan

[Mike brown]

Post by dick thaxter
Eight messages in a thread on 12-strings and no one's mentioned Guild?
Find a used Guild for $1200 and don't worry about tuning it up to
pitch.
dick thaxter

You've been reading the wrong thread.

MJRB

[M***@aol.com]

All this talk about 12-strings is giving me GAS.

I've been checking out the F412 Guild at elderly.com.

Anybody have one?

I might go into debt for one of these.

Mark

[Sherm]

Post by M***@aol.com
All this talk about 12-strings is giving me GAS.
I've been checking out the F412 Guild at elderly.com.
Anybody have one?
I might go into debt for one of these.
Mark

Stand back. Chandler's gonna pounce on your post and he's a big boy.
Sherm

[Bill Chandler]

Post by Sherm

Post by M***@aol.com
All this talk about 12-strings is giving me GAS.
I've been checking out the F412 Guild at elderly.com.
Anybody have one?
I might go into debt for one of these.
Mark

Stand back. Chandler's gonna pounce on your post and he's a big boy.
Sherm

Nothing more needs to be said, Jeff.

He's gonna get a Guild...


-----
"The truth knocks on the door, and you say, 'Go away, I'm
looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling."
--Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

the above e-mail address remains totally fictional.
the real one is ***@spamTHIS!.concentric.net (if you remove spamTHIS!.)
...please check out my music at http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Bill_Chandler/ some time...
...TX-2 Pictures at http://www.concentric.net/~Bc9424/index.html
...TX-4 Pictures at http://bc9424.cnc.net/tx_4_web/tx4_main.htm
...TX-5 Pictures coming Real Soon Now.
Bill Chandler
...bc...

[Trent-Lion]

My 12-string guitar recommendation would be addressed to Leo Kottke:
When you offer an evening of guitar instrumentals, use a 6-string.
T-L

[Mike brown]

Post by Trent-Lion
When you offer an evening of guitar instrumentals, use a 6-string.
T-L

Oh dear.

Where's my asbestos suit.

MJRB

[Misifus]

Post by Trent-Lion
When you offer an evening of guitar instrumentals, use a 6-string.
T-L

Horses for courses.

-Raf

[madgamer]

Post by M***@aol.com
All this talk about 12-strings is giving me GAS.
I've been checking out the F412 Guild at elderly.com.
Anybody have one?
I might go into debt for one of these.
Mark

I own a 76 Guild F412 that is the best sounding and playing 12 that I
have ever played. I have played a couple of Guild 12 that were built in
CA and they were better than any you have on your list, but not as good
as my 76 built in NJ. I will join other voices in saying that if you
can afford it that a guild is the way to go.
Larry

[M***@aol.com]

Where is the Guild F4-12 currently manufactured? California?

I notice Elderly does not have an F4-12 in stock but there are a number
of "warehouse" looking places that seem to have them. The all seem to
be selling for just under $2000.

Does Chandler have on of these?
Mark

[Bill Chandler]

Post by M***@aol.com
Where is the Guild F4-12 currently manufactured? California?
I notice Elderly does not have an F4-12 in stock but there are a number
of "warehouse" looking places that seem to have them. The all seem to
be selling for just under $2000.
Does Chandler have on of these?
Mark

Not I. I have a D25-12, one of the last dread 12-strings made at
Westerley, Rhode Island. I haven't played any of the 12's being made
in California yet, but I have heard consistently good reports on them.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

-----
"The truth knocks on the door, and you say, 'Go away, I'm
looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling."
--Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

the above e-mail address remains totally fictional.
the real one is ***@spamTHIS!.concentric.net (if you remove spamTHIS!.)
...please check out my music at http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Bill_Chandler/ some time...
...TX-2 Pictures at http://www.concentric.net/~Bc9424/index.html
...TX-4 Pictures at http://bc9424.cnc.net/tx_4_web/tx4_main.htm
...TX-5 Pictures coming Real Soon Now.
Bill Chandler
...bc...

[James T. Kirby]

Post by Bill Chandler

Post by M***@aol.com
Where is the Guild F4-12 currently manufactured? California?
I notice Elderly does not have an F4-12 in stock but there are a number
of "warehouse" looking places that seem to have them. The all seem to
be selling for just under $2000.
Does Chandler have on of these?
Mark

Not I. I have a D25-12, one of the last dread 12-strings made at
Westerley, Rhode Island. I haven't played any of the 12's being made
in California yet, but I have heard consistently good reports on them.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

I have F412 number 15 from California. It's a honey! My wife gave it to me
for my
50th - good choice! Mine came from Medley Music in Bryn Maur, PA. My
impression at the time
was that the price was excellent.

My understanding is that Bob Benedetto was helping Fender set up the Guild shop
when they moved to CA. The binding on this guitar is identical to the binding
description
in Benedetto's book. I can almost hear him saying "no, no! for the 15th
time, it's like this!)

Kirby

Post by Bill Chandler
-----

--
James T. Kirby
Center for Applied Coastal Research
University of Delaware
Newark, DE 19716

phone: [phone]
fax: [phone]
email: ***@udel.edu
http://chinacat.coastal.udel.edu/~kirby

[M***@aol.com]

I've got a 1920's Gibson banjo in the closet that's in great shape. I'm
going to photograph it and send the photos to the Elderly appraiser
this week-end. F412 depends how much trade I can get out of the banjo.

Mark
York
PA

[RR]

Guild production that was being done in California has been moved to the
Tacoma facilities.

[Fender now owns both Guild and Tacoma]

I believe only one Guild model is currently being shipped from Tacoma, with
others soon to follow.


RandyR.

Post by M***@aol.com
Where is the Guild F4-12 currently manufactured? California?
I notice Elderly does not have an F4-12 in stock but there are a number
of "warehouse" looking places that seem to have them. The all seem to
be selling for just under $2000.
Does Chandler have on of these?
Mark

[Nick Roche]

On 27 Apr 2005 17:01:23 -0700, "***@aol.com" <***@aol.com>
wrote:

->All this talk about 12-strings is giving me GAS.
->
My wife just bought a Yamaha CPX8-12 which seems fine if you like that
sort of thing. We've had an Epiphone Bard 12 string hanging on the
wall untouched for the last 20 years so I'm at a loss to know why she
did it. BTW I took the Epiphone down just now - FWIW still in concert
pitch with straight neck and no bellying. It would be easy enough to
bolt another neck on anyway. I've hung it up again now probably for
another 20 years (next to the Martin Backpacker of course).

Nick Roche

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/nickrochemusic.htm

http://freespace.virgin.net/n.roche/

[Neil O'C]

Post by Nick Roche
My wife just bought a Yamaha CPX8-12 which seems fine if you like that
sort of thing. We've had an Epiphone Bard 12 string hanging on the
wall untouched for the last 20 years so I'm at a loss to know why she
did it. BTW I took the Epiphone down just now - FWIW still in concert
pitch with straight neck and no bellying. It would be easy enough to
bolt another neck on anyway. I've hung it up again now probably for
another 20 years (next to the Martin Backpacker of course).

Can't believe it's taken me 3 days to get in on a 12 string thread!

Nick, if that Bard has a tailpiece, I probably had one just like it
(blue "Made in Kalamazoo" label inside?) back in the 70's. Was my
first 12 (and second guitar). Had a lot of fun with it, but when I
found my 12-35 Martin, there was no looking back. Every once in a
while a nostalgia bug nibbles, though. Wouldn't mind seeing some pics
if you have them..;).

I used to keep the Epi tuned one step down. After buying the Martin, I
figured a guitar that good HAD to be able to take concert. And it has,
for 25 years, strung with lights. Due for its second fret job, but
everything else is fine: neck, top, action. I take very good care of
it, but there's something to be said for the higher end 12s'
construction.

The Seagull 12 I used over in Iraq was also tuned down, more due to
environmental concerns than anything else. The Tak EG335 owned by the
base chapel was also tuned down....same concerns. With the much better
capos out there now, I suspect it's really a matter of personal
preference as to tuning down or not.

As for 12 recommendations.....having looked over the previous
comments....I gotta admit that Guilds have always struck me as a tad
"dead" sounding. But..them's my ears. Taylors sound great....but the
extra pinched waist is not to my visual taste (and the Breedlove's
styling is a bit too edgy for me...yeah, I'm an old fart...;). So,
going against the grain, here, I'll put in a pitch for Martins. Yeah,
they supposedly don't "get" 12's, but I've yet to play one I did not
like, and my 12-35 has gotten all manner of amazed comments about its
balanced tone. I've played a friend's 12-20 often enough to appreciate
the difference mahogany can make, and it's a fine sounding instrument.
I've yet to try any of the J-16 series, but there will be a trip to the
local Martin place soon to change that. By all means, play lots of
Taylors, Guilds, andothers....but don't walk past the Martins without
checking themout. I'm sure there are dogs out there....but there's
good ones too. And with 70's 12-35's going for what, 1300?, there's
some good stuff out there for not bunches of bucks.

All that said, I'll also pitch L'Arrivees. 2 of the hands down best
12's I've ever heard were L'Arrivees, one a (discontinued, I guess)
jumbo with a slightly set back bridge. If you can find one, give it
serious consideration. I'll admit to a few moments of temptation when
JD posted his for sale. But...I'm still looking for the Martin
J12-40...;).

In moderate price ranges, I like my Seagull well enough. I was very
impressed with the Tak 335, but I'm not a fan of cutaways or onboard
equalizers. Bottom line, as with any guitar, is to try 'em and listen
to 'em. One will sing to you...but that one. As George "Tone Gopher"
Kachner always reminded us....go for the tone....

Enjoy the search....

Neil O'C

[RR]

I agree that Larrivee does 12 strings right. Or at least I've had good luck
with them.
Thats both a D-03-12 and a J-10-12maple. Both are great examples of 12
strings in their respective categories. And I do have great affection for
the old Guilds, but most of that affection has gone to Larrivee the last few
years.

RandyR

Post by Neil O'C

Post by Nick Roche
My wife just bought a Yamaha CPX8-12 which seems fine if you like that
sort of thing. We've had an Epiphone Bard 12 string hanging on the
wall untouched for the last 20 years so I'm at a loss to know why she
did it. BTW I took the Epiphone down just now - FWIW still in concert
pitch with straight neck and no bellying. It would be easy enough to
bolt another neck on anyway. I've hung it up again now probably for
another 20 years (next to the Martin Backpacker of course).

Can't believe it's taken me 3 days to get in on a 12 string thread!
Nick, if that Bard has a tailpiece, I probably had one just like it
(blue "Made in Kalamazoo" label inside?) back in the 70's. Was my
first 12 (and second guitar). Had a lot of fun with it, but when I
found my 12-35 Martin, there was no looking back. Every once in a
while a nostalgia bug nibbles, though. Wouldn't mind seeing some pics
if you have them..;).
I used to keep the Epi tuned one step down. After buying the Martin, I
figured a guitar that good HAD to be able to take concert. And it has,
for 25 years, strung with lights. Due for its second fret job, but
everything else is fine: neck, top, action. I take very good care of
it, but there's something to be said for the higher end 12s'
construction.
The Seagull 12 I used over in Iraq was also tuned down, more due to
environmental concerns than anything else. The Tak EG335 owned by the
base chapel was also tuned down....same concerns. With the much better
capos out there now, I suspect it's really a matter of personal
preference as to tuning down or not.
As for 12 recommendations.....having looked over the previous
comments....I gotta admit that Guilds have always struck me as a tad
"dead" sounding. But..them's my ears. Taylors sound great....but the
extra pinched waist is not to my visual taste (and the Breedlove's
styling is a bit too edgy for me...yeah, I'm an old fart...;). So,
going against the grain, here, I'll put in a pitch for Martins. Yeah,
they supposedly don't "get" 12's, but I've yet to play one I did not
like, and my 12-35 has gotten all manner of amazed comments about its
balanced tone. I've played a friend's 12-20 often enough to appreciate
the difference mahogany can make, and it's a fine sounding instrument.
I've yet to try any of the J-16 series, but there will be a trip to the
local Martin place soon to change that. By all means, play lots of
Taylors, Guilds, andothers....but don't walk past the Martins without
checking themout. I'm sure there are dogs out there....but there's
good ones too. And with 70's 12-35's going for what, 1300?, there's
some good stuff out there for not bunches of bucks.
All that said, I'll also pitch L'Arrivees. 2 of the hands down best
12's I've ever heard were L'Arrivees, one a (discontinued, I guess)
jumbo with a slightly set back bridge. If you can find one, give it
serious consideration. I'll admit to a few moments of temptation when
JD posted his for sale. But...I'm still looking for the Martin
J12-40...;).
In moderate price ranges, I like my Seagull well enough. I was very
impressed with the Tak 335, but I'm not a fan of cutaways or onboard
equalizers. Bottom line, as with any guitar, is to try 'em and listen
to 'em. One will sing to you...but that one. As George "Tone Gopher"
Kachner always reminded us....go for the tone....
Enjoy the search....
Neil O'C

[Nick Roche]

On 29 May 2005 06:24:08 -0700, "Neil O'C" <***@charter.net>
wrote:

->Nick, if that Bard has a tailpiece, I probably had one just like it
->(blue "Made in Kalamazoo" label inside?) back in the 70's.Wouldn't
->mind seeing some pics if you have them..;).

Sadly my Epi Bard has no tailpiece, a bolt on neck and a label which
mentions Norlin and "made in Japan". I have a Texan in the same style
and they probably represent examples of production at the lowest point
in Epiphone's history. Having said that they both play well and sound
reasonable. If I manage to get some pictures onto my website I'll let
you know. (Tried just now but all the camera batteries are dead).


Nick Roche

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/nickrochemusic.htm

http://freespace.virgin.net/n.roche/

[J Paul]

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?

I have a Taylor (555) and Guild (JF55-12). Both are capable of
standard tuning. I am more comfortable with the neck profile on the
Taylor, than the Guild, but the Guild (Rosewood) has a dramatically
fuller sound on the bottom.

I have owned Takamine guitars, and was never happy with their sound
acoustically. Plugged in, they have been okay.

Assuming the sound, durability, and playability of the Tak is acceptable
to you, your choice "D" is a bargain among its competitors.

I really like the Taylors for quality, and consistency. I don't think
the 354 would be a bad choice, if you like the way it sounds.

Whatever your choice, I strongly recommend that play the instrument
before you take it home. Make sure that you are comfortable with the
neck, the body, action, and sound.

[Self]

Thanks to everyone. I have some work cut out for me.

I have a good line on a few instruments. I am sure that I will play any of
these before I buy. I will now look at Guild as well.

I currently own a Gibson LC-3 Caldera for my lead work with an acoustic duo
and I had the original pickup taken out and replaced with Chris Grener's
Truetone Sound. The only hole for electronics is at the base where the
holder peg is located. In the sound hole I have a volume pot. All else is
done off board. This is the way I like it if possible. The huge Fishmen
electronic packages built in the sides of guitars bothers me and the sound
of course.

My ideal situation would be to have Chris put his new RF version of the
Truetone sound system in a completely acoustic guitar. (He did this for
folks like Paul Simon and Eric Clapton.) It is a dream, however I need a 12
string and have little or no experience with them. Money is an issue in
that if its not your main instrument, say you use it for 3-4 songs a night,
is it really worth the BIG DOLLARs? Some of the alternatives you all
mentioned are very affordable.

Thanks once again for the advice.

-s

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am
in the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?
-s

[Bill Chandler]

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?

Others have mentioned, but I'll throw in my $0.02 (adjusted for
inflation, of course): Guild. Jumbo or dread (I prefer dreads, most
folks like the jumbos...).

'Nuff said.

-----
"The truth knocks on the door, and you say, 'Go away, I'm
looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling."
--Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

the above e-mail address remains totally fictional.
the real one is ***@spamTHIS!.concentric.net (if you remove spamTHIS!.)
...please check out my music at http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Bill_Chandler/ some time...
...TX-2 Pictures at http://www.concentric.net/~Bc9424/index.html
...TX-4 Pictures at http://bc9424.cnc.net/tx_4_web/tx4_main.htm
...TX-5 Pictures coming Real Soon Now.
Bill Chandler
...bc...

[Ken Cashion]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:45:47 -0500, Bill Chandler

Post by Bill Chandler

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?

Others have mentioned, but I'll throw in my $0.02 (adjusted for
inflation, of course): Guild. Jumbo or dread (I prefer dreads, most
folks like the jumbos...).

And I will chime in again.
If I were buying a 12-string again, I would only consider the
Guild though I do like the Taylor. I don't think the Taylor would
jingle like my Framus, or the Guild.
I have heard Bill's Guild and played it some. Nice.
And because I like the jingle, jangle, I prefer a smaller
body. If I wanted the 12-string boom, I would go with the jumbo.

Ken

[MBarnett]

Post by Ken Cashion
And I will chime in again.
If I were buying a 12-string again, I would only consider the
Guild though I do like the Taylor. I don't think the Taylor would
jingle like my Framus, or the Guild.
I have heard Bill's Guild and played it some. Nice.
And because I like the jingle, jangle, I prefer a smaller
body. If I wanted the 12-string boom, I would go with the jumbo.

Okay, just stop it! Not just you, Ken; EVERYBODY STOP IT!! Somebody says
"12-string" and throws in the word "chime", and all I can think of is a
Rickenbacker 660/12 and a new Vox AC30CC. I had a 620/12 many years ago and
sold it 'cause the 1 5/8" nut width was just too narrow for that many strings.
So then I found out a few months ago that they make its fancier brother, the
660/12, with a 1 3/4" nut. And Vox, those bastidges, have a new, VERY
nicely-made version of the AC30 (and it sounds w-o-n-d-e-r-f-u-l!). Nothing
says "chime" like a Ric through an AC30. I like acoustic 12s, but I LOVE
electric 12s.

So, do ya'll mind if I blame you for the terrible indiscretion I'm
considering? Cheri might understand if she knows it wasn't my fault. Besides,
if I use a credit card, it isn't REAL money anyway, is it? And if I get the Ric
in Montezuma Brown, it's a close enough match to the tobacco sunburst of my G&L
that she won't even notice it's a different guitar. Yes, she WILL! Darn it!
What am I gonna DO? I can't STAND it!

Monte
(Please help me, I'm fallin' ....... )

[MikeK]

Post by MBarnett
So, do ya'll mind if I blame you for the terrible indiscretion I'm
considering? Cheri might understand if she knows it wasn't my fault.
Besides, if I use a credit card, it isn't REAL money anyway, is it?
And if I get the Ric in Montezuma Brown, it's a close enough match to
the tobacco sunburst of my G&L that she won't even notice it's a
different guitar. Yes, she WILL! Darn it! What am I gonna DO? I can't
STAND it!
Monte
(Please help me, I'm fallin' ....... )

I think you should buy it. Blame me. Tell her that SOB on RMMGA said
you're not a Real Man if you don't play a Ric through a Vox.

Good luck, Monte.<g>

Mike Keller

[Don Erickson]

Follwing up the Guild recommendations you have received - check your
local marketplace or the web for a used F-112 or F-212. These small
jumbos were in the Guild line for decades and were the guitars on which
their 12-string reputation was based. A "good" example can be had for
$400-$500, occasionally less. Very underappreciated.

Don

[Ed Edelenbos]

Post by Don Erickson
Follwing up the Guild recommendations you have received - check your
local marketplace or the web for a used F-112 or F-212. These small
jumbos were in the Guild line for decades and were the guitars on which
their 12-string reputation was based. A "good" example can be had for
$400-$500, occasionally less. Very underappreciated.
Don

Wholeheartedly agree... soundwise. Those Guild necks are a bear though.
Man oh man... if I could find a Guild body and fit a Taylor neck on it, I
really think I'd be in 12 string heaven. Barring a find like that, I'd say
a Taylor 355 would be my choice (though if I had the chance, I'd want to A/B
a 355 with a 10-15 year old 555.) The (early 90's) 555 I had is one of
those "why did I sell that" deals (even though while I had it, it was a "why
did I buy that".) There is a lot to be said for a Taylor 12 tuned low and
then capo'd up. I'll be damned if I understand it but it is something about
the reduced tension that gives it a close but not quite Guild sound.

Ed

[Don Erickson]

Post by Ed Edelenbos

Post by Don Erickson
Follwing up the Guild recommendations you have received - check your
local marketplace or the web for a used F-112 or F-212. These small
jumbos were in the Guild line for decades and were the guitars on which
their 12-string reputation was based. A "good" example can be had for
$400-$500, occasionally less. Very underappreciated.
Don

Wholeheartedly agree... soundwise. Those Guild necks are a bear though.
Man oh man... if I could find a Guild body and fit a Taylor neck on it, I
really think I'd be in 12 string heaven. Barring a find like that, I'd
say a Taylor 355 would be my choice (though if I had the chance, I'd want
to A/B a 355 with a 10-15 year old 555.) The (early 90's) 555 I had is
one of those "why did I sell that" deals (even though while I had it, it
was a "why did I buy that".) There is a lot to be said for a Taylor 12
tuned low and then capo'd up. I'll be damned if I understand it but it is
something about the reduced tension that gives it a close but not quite
Guild sound.
Ed

Ed:

I agree regarding the Taylors. I'm not very fond of Taylor's general, but
appreciate
the big Taylor 12's. Still prefer the Guild 12's, however. Had a JF-65-12M
for several
years that was great. Sold it to pay one of the kid's college tuition one
year, and
replaced it with a very nice Gibson J-185-12 that I bought from Fred
Shrimer. Very nice
and "balanced," with unusually good sustain. I suspect it will amplify very
nicely, and
am leaning toward the new Baggs Element system for it. I am also stoked by
the news
I received today that my "orphan" guitar - an abused Guild F-112 that's been
in restoration
for 7 1/2 months - is being sprayed now and will be ready for pick up in
mid-May. I paid
for the work long ago, and have been waiting for some time. Funny thing is
that the guitar
was unplayable when I bought it, and I therefore have no idea what it will
sound like.
Should be interesting.

Don

[Bill Chandler]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 06:32:54 GMT, "Don Erickson"

Post by Don Erickson

Post by Ed Edelenbos

Post by Don Erickson
Follwing up the Guild recommendations you have received - check your
local marketplace or the web for a used F-112 or F-212. These small
jumbos were in the Guild line for decades and were the guitars on which
their 12-string reputation was based. A "good" example can be had for
$400-$500, occasionally less. Very underappreciated.
Don

Wholeheartedly agree... soundwise. Those Guild necks are a bear though.
Man oh man... if I could find a Guild body and fit a Taylor neck on it, I
really think I'd be in 12 string heaven. Barring a find like that, I'd
say a Taylor 355 would be my choice (though if I had the chance, I'd want
to A/B a 355 with a 10-15 year old 555.) The (early 90's) 555 I had is
one of those "why did I sell that" deals (even though while I had it, it
was a "why did I buy that".) There is a lot to be said for a Taylor 12
tuned low and then capo'd up. I'll be damned if I understand it but it is
something about the reduced tension that gives it a close but not quite
Guild sound.
Ed

I agree regarding the Taylors. I'm not very fond of Taylor's general, but
appreciate
the big Taylor 12's. Still prefer the Guild 12's, however. Had a JF-65-12M
for several
years that was great. Sold it to pay one of the kid's college tuition one
year, and
replaced it with a very nice Gibson J-185-12 that I bought from Fred
Shrimer. Very nice
and "balanced," with unusually good sustain. I suspect it will amplify very
nicely, and
am leaning toward the new Baggs Element system for it. I am also stoked by
the news
I received today that my "orphan" guitar - an abused Guild F-112 that's been
in restoration
for 7 1/2 months - is being sprayed now and will be ready for pick up in
mid-May. I paid
for the work long ago, and have been waiting for some time. Funny thing is
that the guitar
was unplayable when I bought it, and I therefore have no idea what it will
sound like.
Should be interesting.
Don

Great news, Don! I look forward to hearing about the return of the
orphan!
-----
"The truth knocks on the door, and you say, 'Go away, I'm
looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling."
--Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

the above e-mail address remains totally fictional.
the real one is ***@spamTHIS!.concentric.net (if you remove spamTHIS!.)
...please check out my music at http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Bill_Chandler/ some time...
...TX-2 Pictures at http://www.concentric.net/~Bc9424/index.html
...TX-4 Pictures at http://bc9424.cnc.net/tx_4_web/tx4_main.htm
...TX-5 Pictures coming Real Soon Now.
Bill Chandler
...bc...

[Mark Horning]

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?
-s

Um of the ones you mentioned, I'd say the Martin J. Every Taylor 12 (except
the LKSM) I have ever played sounds thin and reedy to me. Not a big fan of
Taks either. My first instinct is to say Guild, but I don't know what has
happened to the line since Fender took over, and used Guilds are very hard
to find. The D-20 seems to have the most favor with the folkie set, but
the F212 is the small jumbo the Guild reputation was built on.

Anyone play a D-4-12 lately? Mine soulds great with silk and steels but it's
mid 90's vintige. I also like the Larrivee D-12R, but mine tends to go
through strings rather rapidly.

Nicest 12 I ever played was a Martin D-35-12, I don't know if it was the 3
piece back or not, but the guitar had the best ring I've heard, without
being "jangly".

Any of these should be able to handle A 440 tuning without problems.
Guilds will be the most stable thanks to the double truss rod design.


Mark E. Horning, Physicist
Phoenix, Arizona

***@eskimo.com

[RR]

No 12-string discussion would be complete without my jumping in and singing
the praises of the Larrivee 12-strings. At the low end a used D-03-12 can be
found in verygood condition for about $600 or so. At the high end, a nice
maple jumbo (ahem) like my J10-12maple. Unfortunately Larrivee has
discontinued making jumbos, but dealers still have them new in stock if you
look around, or will take a used one.

In the low price range, the Seagulls have a very good reputation and I have
a friend who plays one.

RandyR.

Post by Mark Horning

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?
-s

Um of the ones you mentioned, I'd say the Martin J. Every Taylor 12 (except
the LKSM) I have ever played sounds thin and reedy to me. Not a big fan of
Taks either. My first instinct is to say Guild, but I don't know what has
happened to the line since Fender took over, and used Guilds are very hard
to find. The D-20 seems to have the most favor with the folkie set, but
the F212 is the small jumbo the Guild reputation was built on.
Anyone play a D-4-12 lately? Mine soulds great with silk and steels but it's
mid 90's vintige. I also like the Larrivee D-12R, but mine tends to go
through strings rather rapidly.
Nicest 12 I ever played was a Martin D-35-12, I don't know if it was the 3
piece back or not, but the guitar had the best ring I've heard, without
being "jangly".
Any of these should be able to handle A 440 tuning without problems.
Guilds will be the most stable thanks to the double truss rod design.
Mark E. Horning, Physicist
Phoenix, Arizona

[sycochkn]

I use the 10-47 set of strings on my 12. It is a Washburn D25-12 bought in
1980. It has remained tuned to standard pitch for the last 25 years and it
seems just fine.

Bob

Post by Mark Horning

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am in
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models? Any others?
-s

Um of the ones you mentioned, I'd say the Martin J. Every Taylor 12 (except
the LKSM) I have ever played sounds thin and reedy to me. Not a big fan of
Taks either. My first instinct is to say Guild, but I don't know what has
happened to the line since Fender took over, and used Guilds are very hard
to find. The D-20 seems to have the most favor with the folkie set, but
the F212 is the small jumbo the Guild reputation was built on.
Anyone play a D-4-12 lately? Mine soulds great with silk and steels but it's
mid 90's vintige. I also like the Larrivee D-12R, but mine tends to go
through strings rather rapidly.
Nicest 12 I ever played was a Martin D-35-12, I don't know if it was the 3
piece back or not, but the guitar had the best ring I've heard, without
being "jangly".
Any of these should be able to handle A 440 tuning without problems.
Guilds will be the most stable thanks to the double truss rod design.
Mark E. Horning, Physicist
Phoenix, Arizona

[Mike brown]

Post by sycochkn
I use the 10-47 set of strings on my 12. It is a Washburn D25-12 bought in
1980. It has remained tuned to standard pitch for the last 25 years and it
seems just fine.
Bob

I have a Washburn D29S-12, bought in 1979, and, like yours it has been at
concert with 10 - 47s ever since, and is straight and true, and sounding
great.

MJRB

[madgamer]

Post by sycochkn
I use the 10-47 set of strings on my 12. It is a Washburn D25-12 bought in
1980. It has remained tuned to standard pitch for the last 25 years and it
seems just fine.
Bob

Post by Self
I wanted to ask the group about a 12 string acoustic guitar decision I am

in

Post by Self
the middle of making.
1) I have played several less expensive guitars and they can't really be
tuned to A 440.
2) I am looking for a guitar that I can tume to A 440.
a) Martin J12-16GT,
b) Martin DM12,
c) Taylor 354 CE,
d) Takamine EG-335SC.
Any suggestions? Experience with these models?

I recommend you look for a Guild and if money is not an issue then a
F512(rosewood BAck & sides) or a F412(curly maple Back & Sides) are the
best. I have a 76 F412 that I use about 10-47 gages I think and tune it
to standard. The reason I recommend Guild is they build there 12's from
the start as 12's not a 6 model with 12 strings. You could check ebay
to see if any are there. I have played several China guilds and was not
real impressed but that is me.
Larry

[Wayne Harrison]

"madgamer" <***@mchsi.com> wrote in . I have played several China
guilds and was not

Post by madgamer
real impressed but that is me.
Larry

interesting example #5,357 of why the "perfect guitar" will never be
universally acclaimed.

just yesterday i ab'ed a chinese guild (mahogany dred) against an
american guild that was far more expensive, with rosewood back and sides; to
my ear, the former blew the latter to kingdom come. and i am normally a
great fan of the darker, deeper rosewood insignia.

oh, well, takes all kinds, doncha know.

wayne harrison

[madgamer]

Post by Wayne Harrison
interesting example #5,357 of why the "perfect guitar" will never be
universally acclaimed.
just yesterday i ab'ed a chinese guild (mahogany dred) against an
american guild that was far more expensive, with rosewood back and sides; to
my ear, the former blew the latter to kingdom come. and i am normally a
great fan of the darker, deeper rosewood insignia.
oh, well, takes all kinds, doncha know.
wayne harrison
Wayne,

Yep there is no such thing as the "Perfect guitar". I have heard
this China/USA made guild comparison several times before with each side
saying that they are right. :-) I think that neither the China or USA
made guilds are as good as the one's made BEFORE Fender bought the
company. My 76 F412 is as good a 12 as I have ever played and when I
get the saddle fully intonated it will be even better. I would however
take Any of the China/USA made 12's over any he has on his list but as I
said this Is just my 2 cents worth.
Larry

[Wayne Harrison]

Post by Wayne Harrison
Wayne,

Yep there is no such thing as the "Perfect guitar". I have heard this
China/USA made guild comparison several times before with each side saying
that they are right. :-) I think that neither the China or USA made
guilds are as good as the one's made BEFORE Fender bought the company.

best guild i *ever* heard is randy fulk's jumbo (?), which i listened to
at ec8. i am 90% certain that it is a pre-fender model.

maybe joyce or someone can confirm this.

wayne harrison

[Dorgan]

Post by Wayne Harrison

Post by Wayne Harrison
Wayne,

Yep there is no such thing as the "Perfect guitar". I have heard this
China/USA made guild comparison several times before with each side
saying that they are right. :-) I think that neither the China or USA
made guilds are as good as the one's made BEFORE Fender bought the
company.

best guild i *ever* heard is randy fulk's jumbo (?), which i listened
to at ec8. i am 90% certain that it is a pre-fender model.
maybe joyce or someone can confirm this.
wayne harrison

Wayne,
I don't know how old it is, or even the model number of it, but the back and
sides on that guitar are Brazilian. That alone would indicate that the
guitar was built a few years back. Probably in the Rhode Island factory. I
suppose it's possible that it was built in Hoboken, but that would make it
an early 60s and I don't think it's that old..
More than likely, it's a late 70s early 80s model.



I agree that the tone on that one was special. I noticed that guitar from
across the room.
Bass with real balls and clear, sweet, trebles, along with great separation.
Great guitar. It was one of my favorites from this year's EC gathering..

Dorgan

[Greg West]

Hi,

I'm of the opinion that 12-string should be considered a Bb instrument
like a trumpet. Regardless of what any manufacturer says, if you tune
one up to concert pitch for 20 years, the bridge is going to pull off,
the top's going to belly up, the neck is going to bow, and the neck
joint will need a reset.

I mean that as good naturedly as I can. I've been playing 12-string as
my primary instrument for almost 30 years and even the best ones
eventually have problems. I'm not a fan of Ovations, but I'd have to
say that they're the most rugged guitar built for road use. I can't
begin to tell you how many 20-25 year-old Ovation Legends I've seen
with bowed necks or "bellying." Maybe an Adamas (which is really a
tennis racket converted into a guitar) might be able to hold up under
that kind of tension for the long haul.

The other problem is the strings. The lightest string on a 12-string
is the octave on the G string. That's an .008 on the lightest sets.
That gauge is supposed to be an E-string for an electric guitar set.
It's designed to be slinky for bending, but to tune one up a minor
third to G is asking a lot. That's why they pop constantly.

If a guitar designer was really smart out there, they'd design a
twelve-string along the concept of Gibson's Tal Farlow guitars or the
Fender Jaguar, with a 22 or 23 inch scale length. Then you could maybe
manage it, but I dunno. That's still a lot of tension to be putting on
a wooden structure 24/7, 365 days a year, for decades.

Greg West
www.gregwest.net

[don hindenach]

Post by Greg West
Hi,
I'm of the opinion that 12-string should be considered a Bb instrument
like a trumpet. Regardless of what any manufacturer says, if you tune
one up to concert pitch for 20 years, the bridge is going to pull off,
the top's going to belly up, the neck is going to bow, and the neck
joint will need a reset.

my friend's Martin D-12-20 is still playing fine with the original neck
set, tuned to and played in A440 the whole time (pretty-sounding guitar,
too) - it was born in 1966, almost double your 20 years

beware of flat statements, they are almost always wrong-wrong

[Mike brown]

Post by Greg West
Hi,
I'm of the opinion that 12-string should be considered a Bb instrument
like a trumpet. Regardless of what any manufacturer says, if you tune
one up to concert pitch for 20 years, the bridge is going to pull off,
the top's going to belly up, the neck is going to bow, and the neck
joint will need a reset.
I mean that as good naturedly as I can. I've been playing 12-string as
my primary instrument for almost 30 years and even the best ones
eventually have problems. I'm not a fan of Ovations, but I'd have to
say that they're the most rugged guitar built for road use. I can't
begin to tell you how many 20-25 year-old Ovation Legends I've seen
with bowed necks or "bellying." Maybe an Adamas (which is really a
tennis racket converted into a guitar) might be able to hold up under
that kind of tension for the long haul.
The other problem is the strings. The lightest string on a 12-string
is the octave on the G string. That's an .008 on the lightest sets.
That gauge is supposed to be an E-string for an electric guitar set.
It's designed to be slinky for bending, but to tune one up a minor
third to G is asking a lot. That's why they pop constantly.
If a guitar designer was really smart out there, they'd design a
twelve-string along the concept of Gibson's Tal Farlow guitars or the
Fender Jaguar, with a 22 or 23 inch scale length. Then you could maybe
manage it, but I dunno. That's still a lot of tension to be putting on
a wooden structure 24/7, 365 days a year, for decades.
Greg West
www.gregwest.net

Greg.

I have a 26 year old Washburn that has been at concert ever since I bought
it, and it is as straight now as it was then, and has never even had
another setup.

Several knowledgable luthiers have also described it as "one of the best
12s they've ever played".

I don't break octave Gs either, though about a week ago I changed to a
unison pair of wound Gs (Ken Cashion's sugestion) which I like.

MJRB